I want to study enigma.

[Dimidiata]

Ive been thinking on this since i joined the forums. Its always brought to the front line of my thinking when I'm on here. These Lil lizards have sparked a new curiosity. Basically, I want to know everything that can possibly be learned about the enigma. The syndrome, the origins, the parts of the brain effected, the attraction. EVERYTHING. All I'm asking from you guys is to give me links to trust worthy sources, i have bum luck finding them. I have a few broad tests to conduct via school and the general public. I'm curious about the attraction. Most keepers claim its the colors this morph produces that makes them popular, but honestly, i think it may be the thought of owning something different, something uniquely special in a sense that it requires more work so we feel more reward. One of the test i want to try is finding out which color morph would be most commonly chose out of the general public. The first survey would be describing 5 basic morphs(including the enigma) and their qualities and then taking which ones would be wanted in what order. Then the 2nd survey would involve showing a picture of 5 morphs(including enigmas). It would be interesting to see which Leos are picked the most out of both groups. I want to make the tests as large as possible. Minimum 100 people each. Different people each time so that they dont match pictures to descriptions. Its a project that i will share with my vet assist class. Should make an interesting senior project.

What morphs should i use? I'm thinking basic tang, SHTCT, a albino, snow and so on. Anyone got a good list (i could easily go for 8-10 Leo descriptions).
Then i will be needing Representatives. I need a picture of each Leo morph i use donated, enigma included.

Any help and suggestions would be appreciated. This will be a large multiple year project.

 

[andrew5859]

That sounds like an awesome project!! You're lucky for our senior project we have to do something that helps the public and our town. :main_rolleyes: I was thinking of bringing a reptile show to the community at our expo buildings. Anywho keep us updated on this project please I am very interested to hear the result.

I think the morphs you picked out would work great. Personally I have noticed out of all the younger kids, they seem to like the normals/ high yellows with more spots and pattern on them so I would throw one of those in also.
And if you wanted to or just for the heck of it put in a few W/Y's pics and see if anyone can spot the difference or if they like them better than the enigmas or not. Just a thought. Good luck!:main_thumbsup:

 

[leezard]

Dim, You may want to talk to Lillith and GGG they both seem to have a lot of knowledge about these. As I understand it Mark Bell produced the first ones.

 

[The Gecko Person]

I don't know how people could breed enigmas now that there is a white and yellow.
If you really want to know, people ONLY care about the color/pattern difference. They usually don't want animals that would be extra work. It's almost a self control thing. People think they can't live without enigmas.
ALL enigmas have problems. It's just like the spider morph of ball python. I also read where you said you keep fish. It is similar to the genetically- linked recessive form of electric blue jack dempsey cichlid, with its high mortality rate directly linked to the morph.
I have never gad animals with problems. Other people shouldn't. You KNOW it will have problems, so why would you buy it, other than lack of self control, or compulsive buying?

Also, I will correct what some people have said.
You can NOT 'breed enigmas out of having the disorder', line breed them away from it', or ANY other way to try to get them away from having the problem.

 

[tiedxupxinxknots]

Well i dont think it is known what causes the enigma syndrome or even if its a neurological deffect( it appears that it is but its not a proven fact) there are some theories like being unable to absorb a certain calcium, but without studying the enigmas, lab tests and so fourth it wil be unknown and problably remain unknown because it takes time and money which is irrelevant because of the W/Y's and the fact tht alot of people stopped breeding them. I think thatThe main reason why people started with enigmas was because it was something new and pricey but now it isnt. I also don't think people find it rewarding when they produce geckos that can't thrive and must be culled and the extra work isn't wanted people want the enigma without the syndrome but I really don't see that materializing, enigmas will most likely always be intertwined with the enigma syndrome .

 

[Dimidiata]

Thanks, Also let me clarify. Im not trying to raise propaganda for this morph, just study it. I personaly am against its breeding. I think the biggest challenge for me is that i will eventualy probably need to buy and own one before i can do a behaviour study.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well i dont think it is known what causes the enigma syndrome or even if its a neurological deffect( it appears that it is but its not a proven fact).

There was a study performed on the Enigma at a Texas University, and even though the grant funding for this study was pulled, there was quite a bit of data that showed that it is indeed a cerebral defect. I have not seen the complete results.

 

[Dimidiata]

I will need to do some diging on the matter. I will come back when i have a definte list of morphs i will use in my survey, then i will need donated photos and i will more then likely be needing a contract for saftey measures.

 

[stager]

Good luck. But if the research was never completed it will probably be a dead end. I had a boxer who had neuro problems, and no doc could actually pinpoint exactly why, all it did was cost me lots of money. But I can tell you even though he could eat, was house broken, and most of the time functioned pretty normal he never seemed to relax. But just every day life seemed very stressful for him which is why I wouldn't touch an enigma no matter how much I love those orange eyes.

 

[lillith]

I don't know how people could breed enigmas now that there is a white and yellow.
If you really want to know, people ONLY care about the color/pattern difference. They usually don't want animals that would be extra work. It's almost a self control thing. People think they can't live without enigmas.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today, but I am personally offended that you would speak for me on my motivations for keeping enigmas. I realize that everyone thinks the W&Y is the perfect substitute for enigmas; and perhaps they are, if you ONLY care about color patterns.

Just to clarify: I personally keep my enigmas because I love their personalities compared to some of my other, flightier, less handle-able lovables.

I am willing to do the extra care, work, and culling required by working with this morph.

ALL enigmas have problems. It's just like the spider morph of ball python. I also read where you said you keep fish. It is similar to the genetically- linked recessive form of electric blue jack dempsey cichlid, with its high mortality rate directly linked to the morph.
I have never gad animals with problems. Other people shouldn't. You KNOW it will have problems, so why would you buy it, other than lack of self control, or compulsive buying?

Also, I will correct what some people have said.
You can NOT 'breed enigmas out of having the disorder', line breed them away from it', or ANY other way to try to get them away from having the problem.

Again, how do you know? Have you tried it for a decade yet?
And just because you decide something is wrong or right for you; it most certainly DOES NOT give you the right to do so for anyone else, on any subject. KEEP YOUR SHOULDs TO YOURSELF PLEASE.

As far as I know, you've never even kept one. So you are really not speaking from experience, and I would appreciate it if you could at least respect other people who do have experience with them and decide to keep them.

I think everyone has thrown the towel in a little too early on this morph.
And that's fine if they want to, it's their prerogative. But I don't appreciate the nay-saying because there are just not enough facts out there since no one has run a full leopard gecko genome to compare enigma to W & Y to begin with.

 

[StellarExotics]

I have a Tang enigma who is now 2yrs old, that has NEVER ONCE (that I have witnessed) shown any sign of ES. I will be breeding her this spring. I do not know if "breeding stress" will trigger her ES or not, but like I said, I have never seen it...

 

[Reborn]

I too am working towards breeding these guys only. I have several different projects going. One with a male that shows all signs even-so far all his 4 babies have been problem free. I have another one where the males the none enigma and his 3 girls are. One female shows, one doesnt, and one small signs. So far i have only had only 2 babies of 57 babies show any signs. The females that show signs have gone down quiet a bit since coming here. The male tho, his signs have gone at all. I keep the defective babies with me- i say defective loosely; they are some of my favs TBH. The enigma morph is something that has caught my fascination from the first one i got. I was always told to avoid them. That breeding them wasnt worth it but i disagree completely. They make the best pets. Much more curious and a load of personality even more so then others. Thats my 2 sense. If you want more info on my babies i can give you a detailed summary of eachs weight, size, incubation time ext. I was told 1/10 babies show signs but i havent had them odds.

 

[Dimidiata]

Its my understanding that even if your enigma isnt showing ES doesnt mean the ofspring wont be turning tricks. I was under the assumption that the condition of the adults didnt predict the condition in the young, just insured that the enigma line would be passed on.

 

[Reborn]

Its my understanding that even if your enigma isnt showing ES doesnt mean the ofspring wont be turning tricks. I was under the assumption that the condition of the adults didnt predict the condition in the young, just insured that the enigma line would be passed on.

I was imformed by several breeders enigmaxenigma regardless of sydrome would produce many issued babies. I did that pairing-wont be doing it again- I had 11 babies and only 1 had come out with issues. That was with the male with issues and a female without. A mistake breeding as he was sold as female and turned out a male and i didnt second guess as it was a "well known" breeder.

Also was imformed that you "shouldnt" breed a enigma with issues as its passing on the genes you dont want. Yes one can develope issues later on but in 3 years i havent had any develope issues but have had manys issues minimize or go away. I had a male who came with no issues. I kept him for a time then sold him to a friend. He developed signs there. Here he was in a darker place, handled, hand fed, ext. Where he is now hes in the opposite. Bright room, made to hunt his food, not picked up for much ext. Please note i hand feed to keep track as to whos showing signs and who doesnt. They do hunt there own food as well. Enigmas are the definitions of there names-mysterys.

ps i do plan to buy that male back come spring to see if the enviorment plays a roll- mine are all in cages/tanks.

 

[The Gecko Person]

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today, but I am personally offended that you would speak for me on my motivations for keeping enigmas. I realize that everyone thinks the W&Y is the perfect substitute for enigmas; and perhaps they are, if you ONLY care about color patterns.

Just to clarify: I personally keep my enigmas because I love their personalities compared to some of my other, flightier, less handle-able lovables.

I am willing to do the extra care, work, and culling required by working with this morph.

What are your 'motivations' for keeping enigmas?
You say that they have better personalities than your other geckos. My sister bred her dwarf hamsters, and when she had inbred them at least about once, apart from the original Russian x Siberian dwarf cross, that I told her not to do, she made a messed up hamster.
It is gray with red eyes, and does not bite, even though all the other ones do. It also just sits there and seems calmer.
It is natural for animals, or at least most small species, to act scared around people that are huge compared to them. You know that breeders mutilate the color and pattern forms of leopard geckos. Changing how they act and making them have brain problems is a little too much.
I know that's 'my opinion'. If you have any other opinion I know that most people, including me, would disagree with it. Once you start acting like they are toys to mess with however you want your thoughts about them change.
People start thinking they can inbreed animals for a 'just a few' generations to make the colors better. They don't need to do that. You can buy a high quality lavender tangerine.
An example is someone saying 'this pair of sibling geckos has complete lavender bands. The only alternative is a price that I don't feel like paying.'
Then they would in breed them until they start seeing problems to try to improve the color.
I wasn't speaking for you. I was speaking for people that think like you.

Also, you seem to think that since you are willing to clean up your gecko's poop, they are fine with having the syndrome. There is little or no extra work for an enigma gecko, unless it can not eat on its own. You being willing to kill a gecko doesn't matter. It's the fact that you're doing it. If you like your geckos so much as pets and like ones that you're able to handle, why don't you feel bad about killing them, since you knew you might have to when you breed enigmas?

I guess that means you must be in a bad mood today.

Again, how do you know? Have you tried it for a decade yet?
And just because you decide something is wrong or right for you; it most certainly DOES NOT give you the right to do so for anyone else, on any subject. KEEP YOUR SHOULDs TO YOURSELF PLEASE.

As far as I know, you've never even kept one. So you are really not speaking from experience, and I would appreciate it if you could at least respect other people who do have experience with them and decide to keep them.

I think everyone has thrown the towel in a little too early on this morph.
And that's fine if they want to, it's their prerogative. But I don't appreciate the nay-saying because there are just not enough facts out there since no one has run a full leopard gecko genome to compare enigma to W & Y to begin with.

Of course I haven't tried it for a decade yet. I KNOW that I don't speak from experience. I speak from other people's experience. All those breeders that will tell you that ALL ENIGMAS HAVE ENIGMA SYNDROME.
That means that they all saved me from having to figure out if they all have it. Try emailing any of the well-know leopard gecko breeders with your little campaign telling them how you can get enigmas without the enigma syndrome.
I'm sure they will either ask how you got them, or ignore you. But since you don't have anything to show them, you might want to also include in that email your super hypos that have spots, your Tyrosinase negative (no pigment) geckos that have pigment, your eclipses that were bred genetically to ALWAYS have solid eyes, and any other imaginary morph you could create.
Enigmas are LINKED to the syndrome. You can not take it away. There are plenty of facts if you would look for them. What kind of 'genome' would you do between white and yellow and enigma? There is nothing you can do. Enigmas have problems. White and yellows do not have problems. You can't get a more tested, simpler answer about their problems than that.

 

[The Gecko Person]

I too am working towards breeding these guys only. I have several different projects going. One with a male that shows all signs even-so far all his 4 babies have been problem free. I have another one where the males the none enigma and his 3 girls are. One female shows, one doesnt, and one small signs. So far i have only had only 2 babies of 57 babies show any signs. The females that show signs have gone down quiet a bit since coming here. The male tho, his signs have gone at all. I keep the defective babies with me- i say defective loosely; they are some of my favs TBH. The enigma morph is something that has caught my fascination from the first one i got. I was always told to avoid them. That breeding them wasnt worth it but i disagree completely. They make the best pets. Much more curious and a load of personality even more so then others. Thats my 2 sense. If you want more info on my babies i can give you a detailed summary of eachs weight, size, incubation time ext. I was told 1/10 babies show signs but i havent had them odds.

Whether you see the enigma syndrome or not, the gecko will have it if it's an enigma. They are basically a retarded form of leopard gecko. I guess since they don't know to feel scared of people, that somehow makes them have 'more personality' and be 'better pets'.
And also, anyone can give you a 'detailed summary' of a whole list of things. That doesn't change anything.
Have you ever had eclipses that ALWAYS bred true and never made snake eyes? NOPE. Then you can't breed enigmas out of having the syndrome. Not through line breeding, selectively breeding, or killing the worst ones.

 

[lillith]

Of course I haven't tried it for a decade yet. I KNOW that I don't speak from experience. I speak from other people's experience. All those breeders that will tell you that ALL ENIGMAS HAVE ENIGMA SYNDROME.
That means that they all saved me from having to figure out if they all have it. Try emailing any of the well-know leopard gecko breeders with your little campaign telling them how you can get enigmas without the enigma syndrome.
I'm sure they will either ask how you got them, or ignore you. But since you don't have anything to show them, you might want to also include in that email your super hypos that have spots, your Tyrosinase negative (no pigment) geckos that have pigment, your eclipses that were bred genetically to ALWAYS have solid eyes, and any other imaginary morph you could create.
Enigmas are LINKED to the syndrome. You can not take it away. There are plenty of facts if you would look for them. What kind of 'genome' would you do between white and yellow and enigma? There is nothing you can do. Enigmas have problems. White and yellows do not have problems. You can't get a more tested, simpler answer about their problems than that.

Oh good lord.

You are officially a zealot. I don't pay attention to zealots.
After my next post, dear, unless your tone toward me changes, I will not reply to you.

 

[lillith]

Whether you see the enigma syndrome or not, the gecko will have it if it's an enigma. They are basically a retarded form of leopard gecko. I guess since they don't know to feel scared of people, that somehow makes them have 'more personality' and be 'better pets'.
And also, anyone can give you a 'detailed summary' of a whole list of things. That doesn't change anything.
Have you ever had eclipses that ALWAYS bred true and never made snake eyes? NOPE. Then you can't breed enigmas out of having the syndrome. Not through line breeding, selectively breeding, or killing the worst ones.

To answer your questions:
I have only had eclipses for one generation, and so far I have had the luck to only get solid eyes. Will I forever? Likely not.

I really have no clue what you are referring to with your examples of super hypos that have spots (if they are not "baldy" they can have them on their head) or tyrosinase negative geckos with pigment.

And as far as comparing enigma to W&Y genetically, I suspect that the two traits are next door neighbors on their little allelic neighborhoods. No one can confirm or deny that until a genome on leos is done. I do think that tyrosinase is affected by both traits and that this is partially responsible for the visual color traits we see in both morphs. In fact, since bell albino enigmas come with pigmented spotting, there's your example for one of the "imaginary morphs" you somehow have attributed to me.

I bought and paid for my foundational Bold Stripe Bell enigma from Leopard Geckos Unlimited. But that was before your time. I am not sure how this is pertinent to the discussion at hand, but you asked, so...there you go. His name is Eureka, he is still beautiful, still does not exhibit syndrome symptoms, and is still one of my favorites. He was sold to me as a possible giant as well, but I have not been able to prove that out, yet...giant is another whole mess of genetics to argue about.
Citrina is my Bell Sunglow enigma from Lizards of Oz, also before your time. Coincidentally, she was bought and paid for as well. She did exhibit some spinning as a juvenile. She does not now, and is a proven breeder. I am, however, hesitant to breed her again based on her juvenile behavior. I waited until she was two years old to breed. The other enigmas in my collection I have produced myself. All six other enigmas in my collection. As stated before, I have put down two, or 25% of my offspring.

Yes, enigma syndrome is a neurological disorder.
No, you cannot separate it from the morph.
But I don't think you can make the claim that it cannot be bred for lower-to-least harmful expression because no one has tried it yet long-term. If it ends up that I am wrong, I will readily admit that I am wrong. I will tell everyone. And you can have your vindictive little gloating day if that ever happens.

But your little anti-enigma crusade is both unfriendly and annoying.

Why don't you take up the plight of rhodesian ridgebacks or people who breed palomino horses that produce lethal whites or pitbulls bred for fighting. Geez!

The thing that bothers me about your posts is that it's black-and-white to you and you seem to think your view is the only acceptable one.
Life is not so black-and-white.

P.S. Hamsters are not geckos. Small animals are naturally afraid of humans unless we handle them and get them to associate food rewards with the handling. Should everyone stop handling their geckos now, according to you, as well?

p.p.s. You just directly contradicted yourself in these last few posts.
First, it's "no one wants the extra work" of dealing with enigmas.
Then, it's "oh, well enigmas aren't much more work other than cleaning up their poop". So which is it? OH WAIT! You have NO IDEA because you haven't owned any!

p.p.p.s. I'm very glad that you know how to learn from other people's mistakes, that's actually a very valuable thing in itself. But, you don't get to sit there and act all high-and-mighty being judgmental of other people's choices just because you think you "know better" than they do. I am doing my best to actually address your queries with a modicum of respect, which is something you have yet to give me the courtesy of.

 

[Dimidiata]

AHEM!!!!!!! *climbs up on soap box* TAKE IT TO THE PMS! not here, Kthanksbye

 

[lillith]

You are quite right, I am sorry.