I want to study enigma.

[M_surinamensis]

Seamus, their all yours.

I'll get around to it. I have a busy couple weeks coming up and want to take the time to respond... thoroughly... to this one. Mostly because his conviction seems to be coming from a good place; his intentions are something I'd like to preserve, they just need to be tempered with slightly more awareness about the elusive nature of factual absolutes and the difficulty inherent in proving a negative.

 

[ZombiGecko]

I can honestly say enigmas are my favorite.. Yes, they can be extra work, but that is something I am willing to do. My first boy was a enigma and had the BEST personality out of every leopard gecko ive owned, he was ALWAYS calm and chill and always had a laid back mood. I just got another boy(also a enigma) who's personality is almost identical to my 1st boy and I have a special love for them. It's all in preference. Allot of people are against them, but personally they are my favorite for personality and look.

 

[Dimidiata]

I'll get around to it. I have a busy couple weeks coming up and want to take the time to respond... thoroughly... to this one. Mostly because his conviction seems to be coming from a good place; his intentions are something I'd like to preserve, they just need to be tempered with slightly more awareness about the elusive nature of factual absolutes and the difficulty inherent in proving a negative.

I can agree with that. They are both making some intresting points, and have both said the right and the wrong things. I hope you next few weeks go well.

 

[The Gecko Person]

In my collection of 80+ geckos i keep 14 enigmas. All with different degrees of the syndrome. I have done experiments on all but 2 of them as they have the full syndrome and i dont need to test it. I have expossed them to bright lights, handling, being packaged, hand fed and forced to feed on there own, bred, and even left alone. Of that 12 I have had 3 go full blown circling in light, 4(2 from the first group) not be able to eat on their own and only 1 female who wont be bred as it was to hard(from the first and second group) of that that leaves 7 that didnt have syndrome change. Ill test this once more the end of feb. and see if anything has changed.

I was afraid of enigmas when i first started with leos. I wanted nothing to do with them. Didnt wanna risk anything but after getting my first one, Cheza, i wanted to learn more. I HAD to learn more. Its human nature. Honestly there are very few breeders out there who dont keep a single enigma as a pet out there or who has raised one. So my friend you can tell the future? You know without a doubt that 10 years from know the enigma's have the syndrome, the syndrome and not "the possibility"? Anything has the possiblity just as you stated with the eclipses.

Just as you stated selective breeding narrows the collies skull but doesnt selective breeding also bring them to normal size? Im not saying the syndrome isnt neurological but selective breeding brought leos this far. We started with them normals and high yellows and the one albino strain and now look, we have SHTCTBs, patternless, heck even 3 albino genes. Blizzards had tail kinks for some time(still pops up from time to time). Time will tell if the syndrome can be controlled or cancelled out. I had many babies this season and only one enigma died in the egg(had 4 nones die) and had to keep 2 babies because of the syndrome.

Have you ever owned one? Until you have you cant really say that they dont have "personality" as everything has one. I have a hypo enigma who you wouldnt know was a enigma unless you seen her at birth. Not a sign of the syndrome, None of her off spring have shown any sign and none of one of her 5 hatch lings. I had exposed them to bright lights, handling, ext. And they never shown and still dont-i do contact their new owners monthly.

Why do people breed albinos? ANY albinos not just leopard geckos. They clearly have a sensitivity to light and burn under the sun very easily. Some to different degrees then others. If there exposed to light to long they go blind. Same reason people breed enigmas. The albino gene(tho not as effective to the enigma gene) is harmful to the animals. Heck what about hairless animals? Or scale less?

to answer your question. Because its human nature to want to learn.

I guess if people HAD to learn about everything, like I said about the reticulated pythons, is that people would buy one, not taking the information available, and think that theirs will stay smaller than average. Of course not every single one would get 20' long, but if they are known to, I wouldn't risk something I didn't want to happen happening.

I have one strain of amelanistic. It is the Bell strain. I know what you mean about other morphs having problems, but you can't prevent it with enigmas. You can give them as stress-free of an enviroment as possible, but some still show extreme problems.
With albinos, all you have to do is limit the lighting. I have all of my reptiles in rack systems, and there is always dim lighting. I never have to take them outside, so the sun can't hurt them. Also, it only seems to be very sensitive when they are young. My adults only are sensitive to very bright lighting, without a gradual change.

Albinos can be kept in lower lighting, depending on sensitivity levels. Furrless and scaleless can be kept in ways that prevent problems from happening. They can be kept on paper towels or softer substrate, without anything sharp in their cage.
The main purpose of scales in the wild is to protect the animal. They are fine in captivity, because they don't need as much protection.


Nobody said anything about the links I gave, even though people wanted to see 'credible' links.

 

[The Gecko Person]

I can honestly say enigmas are my favorite.. Yes, they can be extra work, but that is something I am willing to do. My first boy was a enigma and had the BEST personality out of every leopard gecko ive owned, he was ALWAYS calm and chill and always had a laid back mood. I just got another boy(also a enigma) who's personality is almost identical to my 1st boy and I have a special love for them. It's all in preference. Allot of people are against them, but personally they are my favorite for personality and look.

This is what I meant about people saying that enigmas are calmer. If an animal is built to try to escape from predators, they would naturally be scared of people (like baby, normal leopard geckos), and when people know that enigmas' brains are affected in some way, it would make me think that they took the instinct of being scared/intimidated out.
Whether people can argue about it being good or bad, giving them personality or basically retarding them, it is definitely not natural.
My 'oppinion' is that it very slightly mentally retards them, making them 'slower'.
They sometimes can't eat or shed on their own, combined with the way people say they are calmer, makes it seem like they are not 'consciously' being calm/relaxed, but more like they are not aware of the potential predators.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I have one strain of amelanistic. It is the Bell strain. I know what you mean about other morphs having problems, but you can't prevent it with enigmas. You can give them as stress-free of an enviroment as possible, but some still show extreme problems.
With albinos, all you have to do is limit the lighting. I have all of my reptiles in rack systems, and there is always dim lighting. I never have to take them outside, so the sun can't hurt them. Also, it only seems to be very sensitive when they are young. My adults only are sensitive to very bright lighting, without a gradual change.

Albinos can be kept in lower lighting, depending on sensitivity levels. Furrless and scaleless can be kept in ways that prevent problems from happening. They can be kept on paper towels or softer substrate, without anything sharp in their cage.
The main purpose of scales in the wild is to protect the animal. They are fine in captivity, because they don't need as much protection.

Comments like that quoted block are where you're going to get into trouble, for a few reasons.

First of all, you're making repeated appeals to authority by selecting statements out of context and assuming that they are absolutes. You take something along the lines of, "Available evidence suggests that all enigmas have the potential to display symptoms, genetic linkage has not had an apparent affect on the probability of manifestation or severity of the disorder," or comments made in specific places where context makes it evident that the speaker is allowing for the existence of statistical outliers and evidence to the contrary; then you repeat them devoid of that context or those modifying terms as being universal truths.

The fact is that the genotype has not been fully examined and explained. It was developed less than a decade ago, most of the information that is known is based on subjective and anecdotal evidence and only a few funded studies have been done that have attempted to examine and potentially explain it on a physiological, neurological or chemical level. Nobody knows exactly what is happening in the body of an enigma leopard gecko; consequentially most of what is communicated (especially by herpetoculturalists) is going to be conjecture. Oftentimes it is logical extrapolation of observable evidence, but it's still conjecture. Treating it as undeniable truth while playing the demagogue is myopic at absolute best, since there's a strong possibility that such conjecture will not prove out in every minute detail in the long run.

Secondly, and again getting into trouble because you seem unwilling or incapable of drawing a distinction between fact, possibility and opinion, condemning enigma breeders and owners based on ethical considerations while simultaneously offering somewhat flimsy excuses justifying similar quality of life and potential health issues associated with other mutations is hypocritical. You acknowledge that adaptations can be made to the circumstances and environment experienced by a captive animal that mitigate the potential negative health effects of their particular mutation. You do this for amelanism and scalelessness (frankly showing a pretty significant ignorance about the effects provoked by the second mutation, but that's another topic for another time) yet you do not extend a similar acknowledgement of the altered conditions for defining success and health in captive conditions to animals possessing the enigma gene.

One of the things that many of those who choose to work with enigmas are actively doing is searching for variables and recording enormous amounts of information in an attempt to better define the physiological effect underlying the symptoms. The possibility exists, between the information being gathered by herpetoculturalists and the directed studies (the few that are undertaken, anyway) that similar adaptations to the captive care of leopard geckos with the enigma genes can severely reduce or even eliminate the deleterious effects. It may turn out to require something as simple as additional supplementation. It may turn out to be something beyond the ability of an owner to address. As of right now, nobody actually knows for certain.

Furthermore, currently available evidence indicates that while enigmas have the potential to express enigma syndrome, even if they have been asymptomatic for long periods of time, it is also specifically linked to the color and pattern. This means that genetically, it's controlled and contained. Enigma syndrome cannot be passed along to non-enigma offspring of an enigma project, it cannot be let loose into the captive population to wreak widespread havoc. Completely unlike recessive and polygenetic traits with associated health issues; which can manifest in unrelated projects at a later date, where disclosure and lineage are of such supreme importance. In other words; an enigma project can only potentially harm those animals directly involved in it, while a scaleless project (depending on the transmission of the mutation in question seriously, propagating that trait is tantamount to animal abuse) has the potential to taint any lineages with which it has contact.

Third, I loathe anthropomorphism, but you're making an enormous and potentially erroneous assumption when you claim that variations in enigma behavioral tendencies are proof of brain damage, mental retardation or some other negative effect. It might be... but calling it proof is a product of your own observational bias. Reptiles are a group of animals which have predominantly procedural behavioral functions, varies a little bit by species but the overwhelming majority of their behavior, their ability to think and remember, is instinctual. Instinctual behaviors are genetic, there's genetic drift even among natural populations, there are localized conditions that can prompt sub-populations to experience success based on different qualities and when they are captive bred following intense lines (as to prove out and reproduce a color mutation) the selective breeding process can (intentionally or unintentionally) produce exponentially faster changes. I dislike using the word "personality" to describe reptile behaviors, but it's entirely possible to breed for behavioral qualities. It happens unintentionally all the time. Without knowing those all important exacting specifics of what the enigma gene is doing, it's impossible to say if these behavioral differences are a product of the mutation or an independent trait resulting from the line breeding that established it.



Now... all that said, I'd never personally get involved with an enigma project. As an opinion, I don't think the potential risk for quality of life issues is an acceptable one given the reward of a different color gecko. As an opinion though, I'm biased by my own tastes. I don't like color and pattern mutations, I like wild phenotypes with all the associated appeal of natural evolutionary pressures and the success of a species based on the specific evolutionary and ecological niche they have come to inhabit. So of course I don't think a funny color is worth the risk. I don't think your albinos and that whatever-silly-name-it-has-traffic-sign-yellow-and-orange-mutant you use as an avatar is worth it either; my opinion is that you're guilty of the exact same violations of ethical concerns and poor choices as the people who breed enigmas.

Here's the really important part about that though... my opinions, like your opinions, are opinions and aren't worth a damn thing unless someone else chooses to imbue them with importance. My opinion, apparently more than your opinion, is an informed opinion; I can explain all the detailed reasons why I arrived at the conclusions I have arrived at, I can cite facts (and their context, an ability you still need to develop) and statistics, I can appeal to authority, I can appeal to emotion, I can appeal to logic, I can bang on the table and I can thump my chest with the best of them. That conclusion is still an opinion and it's still not going to convince any of the intelligent, informed, ethical people who have arrived at a different conclusion to change their minds.

You can convince some people, sometimes... but you have to read your audience to know when to discuss, when to debate and when to fight. You misread this one, chose the wrong tactic and have only succeeded in alienating yourself from the community and getting this lecture from me. Which is a shame, because you had the potential to make an interesting point. Not a new point, but an interesting one nonetheless.

Just something to think about. Y'know. For next time.

 

[Dimidiata]

I do have a question for all the breeders out there. I have seen enigmas for sale(online) that say "does not have ES". My question is, shouldnt it say "has not shown ES"? I only ask because it seems like itd be hard to prove that a enigma doesnt have the syndrom because the syndrom itself can be brought out by diffrent levels of stress right? Some might take more stress then others to show the issues. So should we sell enigmas under the assumption that they do have ES(or have the potential) and give according instructions to the buyer?

 

[ZombiGecko]

This is what I meant about people saying that enigmas are calmer. If an animal is built to try to escape from predators, they would naturally be scared of people (like baby, normal leopard geckos), and when people know that enigmas' brains are affected in some way, it would make me think that they took the instinct of being scared/intimidated out.
Whether people can argue about it being good or bad, giving them personality or basically retarding them, it is definitely not natural.
My 'oppinion' is that it very slightly mentally retards them, making them 'slower'.
They sometimes can't eat or shed on their own, combined with the way people say they are calmer, makes it seem like they are not 'consciously' being calm/relaxed, but more like they are not aware of the potential predators.

Not what I meant by calm.. He will run away when need be, trust me.. He acts just like any other normal gecko but has a more chill personality. But as soon as he feels threatened he isnt a bit "too retarded" to take a bite or take off...... It depends how bad they syndrome is.. Ive seen some bad cases, but not all are like that is all I'm trying to say

 

[Reborn]

I do have a question for all the breeders out there. I have seen enigmas for sale(online) that say "does not have ES". My question is, shouldnt it say "has not shown ES"? I only ask because it seems like itd be hard to prove that a enigma doesnt have the syndrom because the syndrom itself can be brought out by diffrent levels of stress right? Some might take more stress then others to show the issues. So should we sell enigmas under the assumption that they do have ES(or have the potential) and give according instructions to the buyer?

I always go threw extensively with buyers about the risks that it may appear and mark mine all with very little syndrome. Most babies do infact show some type of syndrome and later out grow it. Some dont show any at all. I suppose tho saying "has not shown ES" would be more logical and accurate.

As for enigmas being "retarded" in the nature of not biting. Id love for you to come play with my little Buggys. He's a big boy over 100 grams. You come between him and his ladies and he will bite. He's a good boy and does show the syndrome. He cant hold his head up right, when going for food he gets so excited he "death rolls" like a croc. But ya know what? he produces the healthiest babies ive ever seen. A 6.6 gram baby mack enigma is his best so far. Still have that baby now and its growing quickly. Its instinctual. Calling them "retarded" wouldnt be accurate. They know if you're a threat or not.

 

[ZombiGecko]

I always go threw extensively with buyers about the risks that it may appear and mark mine all with very little syndrome. Most babies do infact show some type of syndrome and later out grow it. Some dont show any at all. I suppose tho saying "has not shown ES" would be more logical and accurate.

As for enigmas being "retarded" in the nature of not biting. Id love for you to come play with my little Buggys. He's a big boy over 100 grams. You come between him and his ladies and he will bite. He's a good boy and does show the syndrome. He cant hold his head up right, when going for food he gets so excited he "death rolls" like a croc. But ya know what? he produces the healthiest babies ive ever seen. A 6.6 gram baby mack enigma is his best so far. Still have that baby now and its growing quickly. Its instinctual. Calling them "retarded" wouldnt be accurate. They know if you're a threat or not.

+1

 

[Dimidiata]

Theres a diffrencee between handicaped and retatrded, thats for sure.

 

[The Gecko Person]

I have already said that I am not against breeding morphs. I am against breeding morphs and knowing that they are 'linked to', or 'associated with' a certain problem.
My geckos are all completely healthy, and most importantly to me, act the most similar with brain functions to an only slightly domesticated strain of Eublepharis macularius species. I don't know how I could be violating the same ethical concerns, or making as poor of choices as someone with an enigma.
It's like I said before.
The furthest I think people should go with breeding animals for mutations is color and pattern. Not brain function.
Now that it's posted, nobody can deny saying that the enigma gene affects the brain function, or at least affects some behavioral or mental area of the natural, or even slightly domesticated form of Eublepharis macularius species crosses.
If someone would be able to tell me a way to completely prevent the syndrome, like supplementation, I would not be against breeding enigmas at all.
I don't think animals care what color or pattern they are. Whether it affects the quality of life is probably not known. It IS known that enigma syndrome is not natural.

Also, I used retarded in other posts as it is meant to be used, as a synonym to 'numbed', and from seeing the syndrome, it does look like the brain is numbed in some way, especially ones that seem 'off balance'.

At least one person admitted that it was not right to breed enigmas, but human nature made them want to.
Another person, a 13 year old, owns an enigma with severe/high levels of the syndrome.

I saw another thread on here with another kid that was asking about breeding their albino enigma, sold to them by the breeder as a pet only, after almost being killed by breeding the first time.

That means that even if you sell enigmas as pet-only, it does NOT prevent them by being bred by careless people.

 

[NinjaDuo]

I have already said that I am not against breeding morphs. I am against breeding morphs and knowing that they are 'linked to', or 'associated with' a certain problem.
My geckos are all completely healthy, and most importantly to me, act the most similar with brain functions to an only slightly domesticated strain of Eublepharis macularius species. I don't know how I could be violating the same ethical concerns, or making as poor of choices as someone with an enigma.
It's like I said before.
The furthest I think people should go with breeding animals for mutations is color and pattern. Not brain function.
Now that it's posted, nobody can deny saying that the enigma gene affects the brain function, or at least affects some behavioral or mental area of the natural, or even slightly domesticated form of Eublepharis macularius species crosses.
If someone would be able to tell me a way to completely prevent the syndrome, like supplementation, I would not be against breeding enigmas at all.
I don't think animals care what color or pattern they are. Whether it affects the quality of life is probably not known. It IS known that enigma syndrome is not natural.

Also, I used retarded in other posts as it is meant to be used, as a synonym to 'numbed', and from seeing the syndrome, it does look like the brain is numbed in some way, especially ones that seem 'off balance'.

At least one person admitted that it was not right to breed enigmas, but human nature made them want to.
Another person, a 13 year old, owns an enigma with severe/high levels of the syndrome.

I saw another thread on here with another kid that was asking about breeding their albino enigma, sold to them by the breeder as a pet only, after almost being killed by breeding the first time.

That means that even if you sell enigmas as pet-only, it does NOT prevent them by being bred by careless people.

In the end who are you to tell anyone else what they can't breed? We're talking about geckos that are captive bred and well taken care of. (I assume this because your post are pointed toward enigma breeders) just because you think you're opinion is right doesn't mean it is.....at all.

 

[Reborn]

I have already said that I am not against breeding morphs. I am against breeding morphs and knowing that they are 'linked to', or 'associated with' a certain problem.
My geckos are all completely healthy, and most importantly to me, act the most similar with brain functions to an only slightly domesticated strain of Eublepharis macularius species. I don't know how I could be violating the same ethical concerns, or making as poor of choices as someone with an enigma.
It's like I said before.
The furthest I think people should go with breeding animals for mutations is color and pattern. Not brain function.
Now that it's posted, nobody can deny saying that the enigma gene affects the brain function, or at least affects some behavioral or mental area of the natural, or even slightly domesticated form of Eublepharis macularius species crosses.
If someone would be able to tell me a way to completely prevent the syndrome, like supplementation, I would not be against breeding enigmas at all.
I don't think animals care what color or pattern they are. Whether it affects the quality of life is probably not known. It IS known that enigma syndrome is not natural.

Also, I used retarded in other posts as it is meant to be used, as a synonym to 'numbed', and from seeing the syndrome, it does look like the brain is numbed in some way, especially ones that seem 'off balance'.

At least one person admitted that it was not right to breed enigmas, but human nature made them want to.
Another person, a 13 year old, owns an enigma with severe/high levels of the syndrome.

I saw another thread on here with another kid that was asking about breeding their albino enigma, sold to them by the breeder as a pet only, after almost being killed by breeding the first time.

That means that even if you sell enigmas as pet-only, it does NOT prevent them by being bred by careless people.

Alas your ok with albinos and hairless/scaleless but not with enigmas. You seem to think that enigmas all show this off balance mental issue when the don't. Like I said before i have a hypo enigma who you wouldn't even think was enigma. Albinos will always have a sensitivity to light to different degrees. Hairless animals will always need their people to warm them/provide for them just as some enigmas will. Could you imagine a hairless albino animal? This is a "certain problem" as you put it. Personally if i had a choice id rather be slightly off balanced then Blinded every time i see a bright light or be without clothing/fur and freeze. At least enigmas have the chance at a normal life.(For the record NOT against either genetic) No one knows if supplementing had a effect as of yet because people like yourself try to hammer your views into others who wish to learn. Into noobs starting out who'll read this and fear reject of the reptile community.

A albino hairless dumbo eared rat wouldnt survive like its cousins in the wild. It would either burn under the sun, be blinded by the sun, freeze to death at night or go death from all the loud noises. It cant grow out of these issues as a enigma can. Why is it ok for them to be breed and not enigmas? They are problems and people continuously breed them. Just because its not "brain issued" as you put it, its ok?


The kid who wanted.to breed that enigma shouldn't have ever got it. I go question people several times and explain things repeatedly. I have turned down over 2 dozen people for a enigma baby because they did t care for the animal as they should. Id never sell ANY gecko to a anyone under 18. If they cant support the animal themselves then its not worth it. 13 yrs cant supply a vet if needed.

My animals are all completely healthy. All are nice and fat and eat well. a handful may have some balance issues but they dont know any different and are just as eager to get food as the rest.

Enigma literally means mystery. We dont know what caused it, if there is a solution, or if it can be eliminated. From what ive gathered it can be. And the select few who are breeding them and trying to prove to people like yourself that not everything is as black and white as it seems. It MAYBE a brain issue it may not. ya know when ya cut a cats whiskers off it walks off balance. Well Maybe some are born without their "whiskers" and later develop them. WE DONT KNOW. and untill its studied farther No one can say if it can be brain related or if it cant be line bred out.

 

[Dimidiata]

Actually, i belive its been proven to be brain related already. Correct me if im wrong. Heres the question. WHY. Why is it so important for us to waste so many geckos trying to breed out the issue, for a lil color? I relize not all engima immeadiatley show ES but it simply cant be proven that they all dont have it, some might require more stress then others for it to show. So we have geckos that can live normal for aslong as we know, then some that are slightly impared and others that must be put down, during this breeding out process how many of these guys show up with issues, how many must be euthed. And we are trying so hard to obtain these guys without the neuro issues simply so we can have their pattern. ITS ONE PATTERN TRAIT(i relize it produces any number of twists on classic patterns). In the end all i see is money, breeders want to be able to sell enigma without neuro issues so people will buy them and pay up money for their unique patterns. Anybody who says they simply love the morph and want it to be ES free is being rediculos, its just a color, not a species. Not having your gecko a certain color is not going to do any damage to the species.

 

[Reborn]

Actually, i belive its been proven to be brain related already. Correct me if im wrong. Heres the question. WHY. Why is it so important for us to waste so many geckos trying to breed out the issue, for a lil color? I relize not all engima immeadiatley show ES but it simply cant be proven that they all dont have it, some might require more stress then others for it to show. So we have geckos that can live normal for aslong as we know, then some that are slightly impared and others that must be put down, during this breeding out process how many of these guys show up with issues, how many must be euthed. And we are trying so hard to obtain these guys without the neuro issues simply so we can have their pattern. ITS ONE PATTERN TRAIT(i relize it produces any number of twists on classic patterns). In the end all i see is money, breeders want to be able to sell enigma without neuro issues so people will buy them and pay up money for their unique patterns. Anybody who says they simply love the morph and want it to be ES free is being rediculos, its just a color, not a species. Not having your gecko a certain color is not going to do any damage to the species.

If that were the case then why would they bother with the enigma gene at all? Why not go with a gene which has no issues and would bring in money? Say the RADAR or the W&Y ? Why waste their time on one that has issues and you may have to put them down. I'm kinda insulted as i breed enigmas and im not in it for money. Heck of the many enigmas i produced i either adopted them to friends for free-so i could continue researching/easier contact- or sold for very low fees(10 dollars). I dont breed for money. If that were the case id be in a much more expensive animal like ball pythons or similar. I like the color they come out, i like the random spotting on the mack enigma or what it does to the other colors BUT i also like the personaility it brings in one. No not one with defects but one thats free of ES. They still seem like much calmer, gentler geckos.

 

[Dimidiata]

Becuase the enigma has proven to be a much much more unique trait. Thats why. Yeah we love the color, the personaility is nice but at what cost to the unlucky ones, are they to be disregarded.

 

[The Gecko Person]

Becuase the enigma has proven to be a much much more unique trait. Thats why. Yeah we love the color, the personaility is nice but at what cost to the unlucky ones, are they to be disregarded.

This is what I was trying to say.
Yes,people might be able to find a completely problem-free enigma with 1000 generations of breeding, but with all the ones they will be killing, it shouldn't be worth it to them.
In other words, if people are breeding enigmas for the color, or even just in general, I wouldn't think that they 'care' about their animals, individually, the same way people with a single pet leopard gecko would.
I wouldn't want to see any of my animals showing symptoms of the syndrome, whether I paid a certain amount for them or not.

Also, I'm writing this as a breeder, and I like the colors/patterns of enigmas and all of the combinations. If they didn't have problems, I would probably already be breeding them. I don't say things about them becsuse I don't like the color, it's because it's not worth it to me.

 

[tiedxupxinxknots]

I have some questions, people are trying to breed the ES out of the enigma but want to keep the calm and "domesticated" features of them? Isn't the reason why they are like that is because they have the ES (not being as alert as the other geckos), so I don't get how you can keep half of the ES by breeding so many generations. Expecting a random mutation that kills half a syndrome seems highly unlikely if not impossible. Im just sayin engimas will probably always be as they are today, but if you want a similar looking pattern without the ES then its already here its called the W&Y, and I've seem some pretty enigma looking ones, its also been said that they are the cured dreamsicle, black hole etc.

 

[The Gecko Person]

In the end who are you to tell anyone else what they can't breed? We're talking about geckos that are captive bred and well taken care of. (I assume this because your post are pointed toward enigma breeders) just because you think you're opinion is right doesn't mean it is.....at all.

Of course, another person trying to 'protect' the enigmas.
You didn't state your opinion, any facts, or even relevant information to the topic being discussed. You just say my 'opinion' is wrong.

Yes, I know that the geckos being discussed are captive bred, which doesn't even make a difference, and no, not all enigma breeders, as you say, keep their animals well taken care of, even though you seem to assume that.

I'm not telling people what they can and can't breed. There are few situations where people can do that.

There can be legislature against breeding a species, but people might still do it.

So, changing what you meant to say to 'what people shouldn't breed', I say that because people know that there is a possibility that the offspring would SHOW extreme problems, and most likely all of them will have it, or at least the possibility.

If you have anything useful and relevant to post, do it, but as you say,'who are you' to contradict the discussion without any correct or relevant information, to back your statement, that my 'oppinion is not right just because I think it is'.