I want to study enigma.

[M_surinamensis]

AHEM!!!!!!! *climbs up on soap box* TAKE IT TO THE PMS! not here, Kthanksbye

I kinda like it where it is. Nice and public for the edification of future readers. I wasn't aware of the partially completed study Marcia had mentioned, that was interesting and new. The ambiguity clearly rages on, but regardless of my personal conclusions* on the subject as an ethical debate, I have learned some things about the credibility of two members here.

One did well distinguishing between fact, supposition and opinion. The other a demagogue that reads like a list of examples illustrating Logical Fallacies, vomiting up things they read on undisclosed websites and "ask anybody" as proof of the validity behind their acrimonious denunciations; all the while exposing some small but meaningful indications** that they don't have sufficient knowledge of the subject to hold an informed opinion.

Valuable stuff to know, for anyone pondering the ponderables of enigma production... and even more valuable for anyone who might be thinking of taking these two at their word on this, or any other, subject. I know which one I'd trust and which I wouldn't, regardless of the subject.

*disinterest, with a side order of long, involved lectures about controls and variables

**a consistent inability to conjugate certain terms reveals a lack of familiarity with their use and identifies a limited education on the subject. Regurgitation devoid of meaning; someone brought a ninth grade education to a biology debate.

 

[Dimidiata]

Your right seamus, that conversation had relevence and i was reading through it but i know where these convos go, it starts on one topic and jumps through others, I dont want a argument on here, particularly not a 1 sided one where one party keeps responding to the sad attempts of another. It is their place to right the wrong info though so by all means, Lillith it wasnt you i was so much talking to as it was TGP, if your going to argue with a breeder, PLEASE educate yourself for the sake of others. Now if anyone intelligent would like to carry on the debate about breeding enigmas i would love to listen in and see whats what and in whos opinion.

 

[lillith]

I am at fault for not being able to let half-truths and assumptions go unchallenged.
I wrote my little "book" there out of the fear that someone would read my silence as acceptance of the other view. I don't like when something repeated enough times unchallenged begins to be seen as true, whether factual or not.

@Dimidiata
So...how is your project planning going? Are you still looking for pictures?
It might also be interesting to show juvi vs. subadult vs. adult pics of the same leo for reactions. Some geckos go through a very ugly subadult stage, others looks amazing as subadults and then pale out. Just a thought.

 

[Dimidiata]

Plans are moving slowly, i have made some changes to the original polling method. Their will be 6 morphs with 6 variable pics of each including young, sub and adult. As the color variation amongst individual morphs can vary depending on the shades and such of the parents. Im applying at my school to see if they will allow me to poll there, i need permission from the Principal saying that my polling wont be disruptive to the other students and such. Its gonna be a little while of course so i exspect to start this in 1-2 months. The other issue is that january is the manatee county fair, being that i have goats to train and plants to perfect, shows to attend and state testing all in january i will be quite busy, i do plan to maintain my appearence on the forum though.

 

[The Gecko Person]

I am a breeder. I don't need to breed enigmas for a decade to know that they always have linked problems. I was using super hypo. as an example. If it is super hypo, it genetically can not have body spots. I also said T- albino. They have NO pigment, so you do not have a pigmented T- albino.
It is the same with enigma. They have enigma syndrome. If your 'enigma' doesn't have the syndrome, it's not an enigma. Why do you think all the 'well known' breeders say that? The problem can NOT be 'reduced', 'removed', and it can't be taken away fro m the genes that the enigmas alter. Eclipses have been around for years. Why do you think that there is no lineage that ONLY produces solid eyes?
It is because they have variable amounts of eye pigment. It can't be bred to be solid.
FACTS-
All enigmas have the disorder.
Enigmas will ALWAYS be linked to the disorder, the same way eclipses will always have a chance of producing snake-eyes.
Leopard geckos are not 'more curious' or have 'better personalities' because they have the enigma gene. If you put a group of enigmas in the wild with the indigenous E. macularius in their natural habitat, the enigma gene would be bred out of the colony eventually. They sometimes can't even eat on their own, they corkscrew, and they stargaze.

Of course I am against breeding any animals that have problems when there is an alternative to the species. I'm sure someone will say, 'Oh no, that means you're against owning dogs?'.
No. I am against BREEDING animals TO have problems, and 'morphs' or 'variants' with attached problems.
Dogs breeders usually breed collies to have narrow skulls. It damages their brain. It is line or selectively breeding. I am against that.
Nobody can seem to tell me how people survived all those years with just normals and high yellows. I'm talking about the time before even the first albinos. People never would have imagined enigmas. Why is it so hard for people to pretend they don't exist?
There is at least one person that said they would never buy enigmas no matter how much they like them.
Most people just can't think like that. They HAVE to get what they like.

 

[The Gecko Person]

I kinda like it where it is. Nice and public for the edification of future readers. I wasn't aware of the partially completed study Marcia had mentioned, that was interesting and new. The ambiguity clearly rages on, but regardless of my personal conclusions* on the subject as an ethical debate, I have learned some things about the credibility of two members here.

One did well distinguishing between fact, supposition and opinion. The other a demagogue that reads like a list of examples illustrating Logical Fallacies, vomiting up things they read on undisclosed websites and "ask anybody" as proof of the validity behind their acrimonious denunciations; all the while exposing some small but meaningful indications** that they don't have sufficient knowledge of the subject to hold an informed opinion.

Valuable stuff to know, for anyone pondering the ponderables of enigma production... and even more valuable for anyone who might be thinking of taking these two at their word on this, or any other, subject. I know which one I'd trust and which I wouldn't, regardless of the subject.

*disinterest, with a side order of long, involved lectures about controls and variables

**a consistent inability to conjugate certain terms reveals a lack of familiarity with their use and identifies a limited education on the subject. Regurgitation devoid of meaning; someone brought a ninth grade education to a biology debate.

What do you think I said that isn't true? Write something I actually wrote, not some thought you derived from it.
I said-
ENIGMAS CAN NOT BE BRED OUT OF THE DISORDER IN ANY WAY.

That is the SAME thing that all the 'well-known' breeders say.
Ask any breeder of enigmas. They will say the same thing I said.
I read and talked to other breeders about enigmas before. Unless they all lied the same lie to me, what I said is reality with enigmas.
I only said what I have read on credible websites, even though you seem to know which ones I have read and call them 'undisclosed', and from hearing it directly from well known breeders that breed enigmas.
The things I wrote are 'true' or 'credible'.
Now try to find something I wrote that is NOT true. Something I said is a fact that is not.
You will either make a mistake trying to fing something, or you will say something like 'I won't be typing here anymore' when you aren't able to find it.

 

[Dimidiata]

What do you think I said that isn't true? Write something I actually wrote, not some thought you derived from it.
I said-
ENIGMAS CAN NOT BE BRED OUT OF THE DISORDER IN ANY WAY.

That is the SAME thing that all the 'well-known' breeders say.
Ask any breeder of enigmas. They will say the same thing I said.
I read and talked to other breeders about enigmas before. Unless they all lied the same lie to me, what I said is reality with enigmas.
I only said what I have read on credible websites, even though you seem to know which ones I have read and call them 'undisclosed', and from hearing it directly from well known breeders that breed enigmas.
The things I wrote are 'true' or 'credible'.
Now try to find something I wrote that is NOT true. Something I said is a fact that is not.
You will either make a mistake trying to fing something, or you will say something like 'I won't be typing here anymore' when you aren't able to find it.

Will you calm down please? your embarressing our age group.

 

[Geckos4Life<3]

Ive been thinking on this since i joined the forums. Its always brought to the front line of my thinking when I'm on here. These Lil lizards have sparked a new curiosity. Basically, I want to know everything that can possibly be learned about the enigma. The syndrome, the origins, the parts of the brain effected, the attraction. EVERYTHING. All I'm asking from you guys is to give me links to trust worthy sources, i have bum luck finding them. I have a few broad tests to conduct via school and the general public. I'm curious about the attraction. Most keepers claim its the colors this morph produces that makes them popular, but honestly, i think it may be the thought of owning something different, something uniquely special in a sense that it requires more work so we feel more reward. One of the test i want to try is finding out which color morph would be most commonly chose out of the general public. The first survey would be describing 5 basic morphs(including the enigma) and their qualities and then taking which ones would be wanted in what order. Then the 2nd survey would involve showing a picture of 5 morphs(including enigmas). It would be interesting to see which Leos are picked the most out of both groups. I want to make the tests as large as possible. Minimum 100 people each. Different people each time so that they dont match pictures to descriptions. Its a project that i will share with my vet assist class. Should make an interesting senior project.

What morphs should i use? I'm thinking basic tang, SHTCT, a albino, snow and so on. Anyone got a good list (i could easily go for 8-10 Leo descriptions).
Then i will be needing Representatives. I need a picture of each Leo morph i use donated, enigma included.

Any help and suggestions would be appreciated. This will be a large multiple year project.

Well, there is a forum called Herp Ireland (an Ireland based forum). A guy on it called Mal has done an amazing thread on it. Join up to look at it

I have a few Enigma geckos :

Super Hypo Enigma
Tremper Enigma
Albino Enigma

The albino enigma and temper enigma are 100% fine but, if you seen my super hypo enigma you would think she's drunk 10 gallons of beer!! I named her Gazer. I'll get a video on YouTube and post a link when I get home to show you how badly she walks. She eats, sheds and poops great. But she's just in her own drunk wonderland! She had stopped eating for a while back but I eventually got her back to feeding. It was rather hard. She would eat the occasional mealworm or locust. But she eats great now

If you have any questions about her just drop me a pm

P.S guys, don't get on my back for keeping them on Aspen. They are perfectly fine and have been on it for 4-5 months now and they are all healthy and have a great appetite

Gazer (the Super Hypo Enigma) giving Lanky my albino leusictic a kiss


Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk

 

[OneFootedAce]

It is the same with enigma. They have enigma syndrome. If your 'enigma' doesn't have the syndrome, it's not an enigma. Why do you think all the 'well known' breeders say that? The problem can NOT be 'reduced', 'removed', and it can't be taken away fro m the genes that the enigmas alter.
FACTS-
All enigmas have the disorder.
Enigmas will ALWAYS be linked to the disorder, the same way eclipses will always have a chance of producing snake-eyes.
Leopard geckos are not 'more curious' or have 'better personalities' because they have the enigma gene. If you put a group of enigmas in the wild with the indigenous E. macularius in their natural habitat, the enigma gene would be bred out of the colony eventually. They sometimes can't even eat on their own, they corkscrew, and they stargaze.

To put it bluntly, you're wrong. Not all enigmas have the syndrome, and not all breeders say that the syndrome is a hopeless cause, nor irreparable.

All the enigmas I've purchased have come from one breeder (I won't name him, because I don't know if he wishes to be named. Maybe he'll see this thread and throw in his 2c), who claims he has NEVER produced an enigma demonstrating the syndrome. No stargazing, no spinning etc. I have no reason not to believe him because I have yet to produce an enigma with the syndrome. If you didn't know any better, you wouldn't know these were enigmas (besides their physical appearance, obviously). Even after countless breeding seasons this person has experienced, his enigma males and females all are 100% fine, and not showing any symptoms. Neither are mine.
It takes some guts to speak on behalf of all the 'big name' breeders and say all of them say that "the problem cannot be reduced or removed", I guess you've spoken to every single breeder about this issue then..:main_rolleyes:

Your points are not facts. Those are your opinions. Nothing more.

 

[The Gecko Person]

To put it bluntly, you're wrong. Not all enigmas have the syndrome, and not all breeders say that the syndrome is a hopeless cause, nor irreparable.

All the enigmas I've purchased have come from one breeder (I won't name him, because I don't know if he wishes to be named. Maybe he'll see this thread and throw in his 2c), who claims he has NEVER produced an enigma demonstrating the syndrome. No stargazing, no spinning etc. I have no reason not to believe him because I have yet to produce an enigma with the syndrome. If you didn't know any better, you wouldn't know these were enigmas (besides their physical appearance, obviously). Even after countless breeding seasons this person has experienced, his enigma males and females all are 100% fine, and not showing any symptoms. Neither are mine.
It takes some guts to speak on behalf of all the 'big name' breeders and say all of them say that "the problem cannot be reduced or removed", I guess you've spoken to every single breeder about this issue then..:main_rolleyes:

Your points are not facts. Those are your opinions. Nothing more.

Not all enigmas show the disorder. They all 'have' it, and they all have the possibility of showing it at any certain point.
From what I have heard from many sources, including these forums, is that some start showing signs after being stressed a certain amount. That means breeding, being shipped, being brought to an expo, or a variety of other things that are stressful to the animals.
What many breeders say, the same as I say, 'counts' more than you getting lucky with the breeder you are talking about and not getting enigmas that 'show' the problems.

I could also get lucky breeding eclipses, and getting only ones with solid eyes. Does that mean that snake-eyes don't exist? It's very similar. The genetic traits are linked to genetic characteristics, called morphs. Some alter color, some alter pattern, some do both, and unfortunately, some alter which areas of the brain function correctly, or how much it functions, to certain points. They do that whether people think it 'gives them personality' or not.

No, the majority of the breeders do not call the gene 'irreparable or a hopeless cause', like you said, and I did NOT say that I talked to 'all' of the breeders out there, but since you seem to have read where I said that, why don't you quote it?
If I never said something, don't try to say that I did. That's not how it works.
They all have the syndrome.
Whether it shows in the extreme form or a semi-reduced or temporarily lowered form is completely different.

Still, nobody seems to be able to tell me why people take the chance with it in the first place.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Permission to treat this witness as hostile?

 

[marauderhex]

Permission to treat this witness as hostile?

Neutralize the threat. Target is confirmed hostile.

 

[Dimidiata]

Fire on my orders.

 

[Dimidiata]

Your clear to shoot, fire away.

 

[Owens]

People breed these geckos for the same reason they breed any animal, pure self indulgence. Human nature makes us want to own what we shouldn't, makes us do things that we shouldn't.
If what you are saying is all "fact" then provide us with the website address where you received your facts from. Give us the names of the breeders you have spoken with so that we may speak with them to better educate ourselves. If you do not provide the source of your facts then to us they are just your opinions and not facts at all.
Just my 2 cents here as I am a owner of a very lovable red eye that I will be breeding.

 

[The Gecko Person]

People breed these geckos for the same reason they breed any animal, pure self indulgence. Human nature makes us want to own what we shouldn't, makes us do things that we shouldn't.
If what you are saying is all "fact" then provide us with the website address where you received your facts from. Give us the names of the breeders you have spoken with so that we may speak with them to better educate ourselves. If you do not provide the source of your facts then to us they are just your opinions and not facts at all.
Just my 2 cents here as I am a owner of a very lovable red eye that I will be breeding.

Here are two from the same people, who I consider experienced. People can say that theirs have no problems. Those people either don't really know, are lying, or are just trying to sell it.

Scroll down to the enigma section, and read the ENTIRE paragraph. It's not long and says what I have been saying. This is for all the other people trying to argue against me instead of just admitting that they have problems.

Any 10 year old with $100 could buy a retic. at a reptile expo. Does that make it right?

vmsherp.comViewLeopards.htm

vmsherp.com/LCLeopardnames.htm

Copy and paste into your address bar and scroll down to the enigma section.

I know I shouldn't have to explain to people that they shouldn't breed what has problems, or will have offspring with problems.

I also talk to Jeff (owner od JMG),on the phone, and he said that they either all have it or have the ability to produce offspring that have it.

 

[Dimidiata]

Seamus, their all yours. On an update, ive been busy with fair and such but im starting to pull things togather for the first poll. I have my log filled with some nice info.

 

[OneFootedAce]

Not all enigmas show the disorder. They all 'have' it, and they all have the possibility of showing it at any certain point.
From what I have heard from many sources, including these forums, is that some start showing signs after being stressed a certain amount. That means breeding, being shipped, being brought to an expo, or a variety of other things that are stressful to the animals.
What many breeders say, the same as I say, 'counts' more than you getting lucky with the breeder you are talking about and not getting enigmas that 'show' the problems.

I could also get lucky breeding eclipses, and getting only ones with solid eyes. Does that mean that snake-eyes don't exist? It's very similar. The genetic traits are linked to genetic characteristics, called morphs. Some alter color, some alter pattern, some do both, and unfortunately, some alter which areas of the brain function correctly, or how much it functions, to certain points. They do that whether people think it 'gives them personality' or not.

No, the majority of the breeders do not call the gene 'irreparable or a hopeless cause', like you said, and I did NOT say that I talked to 'all' of the breeders out there, but since you seem to have read where I said that, why don't you quote it?
If I never said something, don't try to say that I did. That's not how it works.
They all have the syndrome.
Whether it shows in the extreme form or a semi-reduced or temporarily lowered form is completely different.

Still, nobody seems to be able to tell me why people take the chance with it in the first place.

It was a sarcastic comment. You were speaking as if you have spoken to everyone and that its a fact that you're right and everyone agrees with you. You're entitled to your opinion.
All I was saying is that I have no reasons not to believe that the breeder I've gotten my enigmas from don't have the syndrome because I have yet to produce an enigma with the syndrome. Even after what people may classify as a stressful event like breeding, or expos.

The same thing was/is hapenning with spiders with ball pythons, to my knowledge, progress has been made with a lot of out crossing and selective breeding. If that can be done with enigmas? maybe, maybe not. I can't tell you. But there's one way to find out...

Anyways, I don't think we'll get very far with this conversation..you have your opinion, and I have mine.

 

[Reborn]

In my collection of 80+ geckos i keep 14 enigmas. All with different degrees of the syndrome. I have done experiments on all but 2 of them as they have the full syndrome and i dont need to test it. I have expossed them to bright lights, handling, being packaged, hand fed and forced to feed on there own, bred, and even left alone. Of that 12 I have had 3 go full blown circling in light, 4(2 from the first group) not be able to eat on their own and only 1 female who wont be bred as it was to hard(from the first and second group) of that that leaves 7 that didnt have syndrome change. Ill test this once more the end of feb. and see if anything has changed.

I was afraid of enigmas when i first started with leos. I wanted nothing to do with them. Didnt wanna risk anything but after getting my first one, Cheza, i wanted to learn more. I HAD to learn more. Its human nature. Honestly there are very few breeders out there who dont keep a single enigma as a pet out there or who has raised one. So my friend you can tell the future? You know without a doubt that 10 years from know the enigma's have the syndrome, the syndrome and not "the possibility"? Anything has the possiblity just as you stated with the eclipses.

Just as you stated selective breeding narrows the collies skull but doesnt selective breeding also bring them to normal size? Im not saying the syndrome isnt neurological but selective breeding brought leos this far. We started with them normals and high yellows and the one albino strain and now look, we have SHTCTBs, patternless, heck even 3 albino genes. Blizzards had tail kinks for some time(still pops up from time to time). Time will tell if the syndrome can be controlled or cancelled out. I had many babies this season and only one enigma died in the egg(had 4 nones die) and had to keep 2 babies because of the syndrome.

Have you ever owned one? Until you have you cant really say that they dont have "personality" as everything has one. I have a hypo enigma who you wouldnt know was a enigma unless you seen her at birth. Not a sign of the syndrome, None of her off spring have shown any sign and none of one of her 5 hatch lings. I had exposed them to bright lights, handling, ext. And they never shown and still dont-i do contact their new owners monthly.

Why do people breed albinos? ANY albinos not just leopard geckos. They clearly have a sensitivity to light and burn under the sun very easily. Some to different degrees then others. If there exposed to light to long they go blind. Same reason people breed enigmas. The albino gene(tho not as effective to the enigma gene) is harmful to the animals. Heck what about hairless animals? Or scale less?

to answer your question. Because its human nature to want to learn.

 

[Dimidiata]

^ useful