I want to study enigma.

[Russellm0704]

Of course, another person trying to 'protect' the enigmas.
You didn't state your opinion, any facts, or even relevant information to the topic being discussed. You just say my 'opinion' is wrong.

Yes, I know that the geckos being discussed are captive bred, which doesn't even make a difference, and no, not all enigma breeders, as you say, keep their animals well taken care of, even though you seem to assume that.

I'm not telling people what they can and can't breed. There are few situations where people can do that.

There can be legislature against breeding a species, but people might still do it.

So, changing what you meant to say to 'what people shouldn't breed', I say that because people know that there is a possibility that the offspring would SHOW extreme problems, and most likely all of them will have it, or at least the possibility.

If you have anything useful and relevant to post, do it, but as you say,'who are you' to contradict the discussion without any correct or relevant information, to back your statement, that my 'oppinion is not right just because I think it is'.

And who are you to discredit all the hard work that these experienced breeders have accomplished? Some of the breeders here on Geckoforums have been at it for 4 times as long as you have even been alive. This is extremely rude and extremely unprofessional. Many of these breeders have the brains and the tools to safely breed enigmas with very few problems. I personally would never work with or buy an enigma simply because I am not prepared for that challenge. But shame on you for putting all these breeders down. Can I ask you a question? Do you actually fund your own Breeding business?

 

[The Gecko Person]

I have some questions, people are trying to breed the ES out of the enigma but want to keep the calm and "domesticated" features of them? Isn't the reason why they are like that is because they have the ES (not being as alert as the other geckos), so I don't get how you can keep half of the ES by breeding so many generations. Expecting a random mutation that kills half a syndrome seems highly unlikely if not impossible. Im just sayin engimas will probably always be as they are today, but if you want a similar looking pattern without the ES then its already here its called the W&Y, and I've seem some pretty enigma looking ones, its also been said that they are the cured dreamsicle, black hole etc.

Some people just won't accept the w&y, just because it is not an EXACT alternative. I think that it's good enough, and so similar that without knowing alot about it, they could easily be mistaken for enigmas.

Some people even bred w&y x enigma, to get the combination. I think it's pretty useless to breed the problematic to the alternative, similar to breeding/combining two albino strains.

 

[tiedxupxinxknots]

And who are you to discredit all the hard work that these experienced breeders have accomplished?

What do you mean by this?

 

[The Gecko Person]

And who are you to discredit all the hard work that these experienced breeders have accomplished? Some of the breeders here on Geckoforums have been at it for 4 times as long as you have even been alive. This is extremely rude and extremely unprofessional. Many of these breeders have the brains and the tools to safely breed enigmas with very few problems. I personally would never work with or buy an enigma simply because I am not prepared for that challenge. But shame on you for putting all these breeders down. Can I ask you a question? Do you actually fund your own Breeding business?

What 'hard work' did they accomplish? Show me a problem free enigma lineage with no chances of ES.
I'll try to answer your 'questions' in order.
First of all, I extremely doubt any breeders, on here or anywhere in general, having bred leopard geckos for 60 years, as you claim.

Also, you make a claim that the same breeders have 'tools' to 'safely breed enigmas with very few problems'.

You even go on to ask something completely irrelevant to the topic, tp try to cut up my age.
if I quote-
"actually fund my own Breeding business"

There are a few answers to that.
First of all, I am not currently breeding for the money. When I sell animals, it is to try to make money back. If you are asking if I pay for my hobby, yes I do. I pay for the animals, supplies, and anything else with my own money that I either earned through a previous investment, or through trades for animals I produced.
I breed my own feeder insects, or buy large quantities of feeder animals. I buy breeding stock to make the best possible investment, in addition to my current animals, and also ones that I would like having and breeding.

 

[Russellm0704]

What do you mean by this?

I'm talking about how far the morph has come and improved. It has been incorporated into so many combinations and looks brilliant. I just thinks its absolutely wrong to bash all these experienced breeders who have dedicated a HUGE chunk of their lives to these geckos. And for someone to bash them for doing anything wrong is insane to me. They are on the forums each and every day warning newbs against loose substrates, wrong temps, fatty food sources, etc. We all have our opinion on the enigma gene and my opinion is indeed against it. But this person(not you tiedupinknots) is coming here and criticizing breeders who have been in the game for decades. If you have not worked with the enigma trait for years and years, who are you to bash it?

 

[Dimidiata]

My final statement on the matter. What does the gecko population gain by having ES free enigmas. What does it lose along the way. What do we as people gain from having ES free enigmas. What do we lose. Now, you tell me who has the short end of this deal. Honestly, i dont care anymore on this particular topic. Im still going to study enigma but as far as the moral arguing goes im about done.

 

[The Gecko Person]

Alas your ok with albinos and hairless/scaleless but not with enigmas. You seem to think that enigmas all show this off balance mental issue when the don't. Like I said before i have a hypo enigma who you wouldn't even think was enigma. Albinos will always have a sensitivity to light to different degrees. Hairless animals will always need their people to warm them/provide for them just as some enigmas will. Could you imagine a hairless albino animal? This is a "certain problem" as you put it. Personally if i had a choice id rather be slightly off balanced then Blinded every time i see a bright light or be without clothing/fur and freeze. At least enigmas have the chance at a normal life.(For the record NOT against either genetic) No one knows if supplementing had a effect as of yet because people like yourself try to hammer your views into others who wish to learn. Into noobs starting out who'll read this and fear reject of the reptile community.

A albino hairless dumbo eared rat wouldnt survive like its cousins in the wild. It would either burn under the sun, be blinded by the sun, freeze to death at night or go death from all the loud noises. It cant grow out of these issues as a enigma can. Why is it ok for them to be breed and not enigmas? They are problems and people continuously breed them. Just because its not "brain issued" as you put it, its ok?


The kid who wanted.to breed that enigma shouldn't have ever got it. I go question people several times and explain things repeatedly. I have turned down over 2 dozen people for a enigma baby because they did t care for the animal as they should. Id never sell ANY gecko to a anyone under 18. If they cant support the animal themselves then its not worth it. 13 yrs cant supply a vet if needed.

My animals are all completely healthy. All are nice and fat and eat well. a handful may have some balance issues but they dont know any different and are just as eager to get food as the rest.

Enigma literally means mystery. We dont know what caused it, if there is a solution, or if it can be eliminated. From what ive gathered it can be. And the select few who are breeding them and trying to prove to people like yourself that not everything is as black and white as it seems. It MAYBE a brain issue it may not. ya know when ya cut a cats whiskers off it walks off balance. Well Maybe some are born without their "whiskers" and later develop them. WE DONT KNOW. and untill its studied farther No one can say if it can be brain related or if it cant be line bred out.

If you had actually read and comprehended my previous posts, they said:

Not all enigmas SHOW problems. They all HAVE problems, or at least the potential to produce enigmas with problems.

You still go on to say things about the albinos problems.
Leopard geckos have eyelids. if they are in stress from too much light, they would close their eyes. There IS an easy way to prevent them from being hurt by high light levels, which is hopefully obvious to you.
You could use dimmer lighting.
That is a fool-proof technique to prevent stress from the lighting being too bright.

I'm not sure what you meant by the hairless/scaleless animals getting too cold.
Hairless animals have adapted, as they were bred to have less hair, to also have a higher body temperature. They were first bred by ancient cultures for the rich people to use as neck warmers.

What you say about scaleless getying cold makes sense even less.
I don't feel like giving the lecture about cold blooded animals vs. warm blooded, but if you have a 95 degree basking spot in the cages of a scaleless snake and a scaled snake, tell me which will have the warmer body temp. while basking.

That sort of reminds me of the joke, which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks?

I didn't say anything about dumbo rodents, or about releasing an extreme mutant into the wild.
I said that there is no fool-proof way against ES, like the way you can lower the lighting for albinos.

 

[tiedxupxinxknots]

My final statement on the matter. What does the gecko population gain by having ES free enigmas. What does it lose along the way. What do we as people gain from having ES free enigmas. What do we lose. Now, you tell me who has the short end of this deal. Honestly, i dont care anymore on this particular topic. Im still going to study enigma but as far as the moral arguing goes im about done.

We people get nothing really if there is a ES free enigmas.the only ones that gain from this is the geckos themselves, they get to be normal, and the only thing we lose is a"friendly" gecko.

 

[The Gecko Person]

My final statement on the matter. What does the gecko population gain by having ES free enigmas. What does it lose along the way. What do we as people gain from having ES free enigmas. What do we lose. Now, you tell me who has the short end of this deal. Honestly, i dont care anymore on this particular topic. Im still going to study enigma but as far as the moral arguing goes im about done.

If you're against breeding enigmas, but want to study something that not much is known about, w&y are even more recent and unknown than enigmas. I'm sure there will be other people trying to learn more about it soon, but right now all of the studies/long term tests seem to be being done on enigmas.

 

[Dimidiata]

We people get nothing really if there is a ES free enigmas.the only ones that gain from this is the geckos themselves, they get to be normal, and the only thing we lose is a"friendly" gecko.

WRONG. Creating a enigma without the syndrom means that gecko will live a normal life. BUT BUT BUT EVERY enigma to date will still have it. Just because we can create a enigma without ES doesnt mean all the enigmas suffering from it are magicaly cured. They dont benifit. And the ES free enigma is not beniffiting anymore then a regular normal(morph) leopard gecko. They never had the syndrom, they didnt suffer. If we want to create leos without ES, we already have them.

 

[tiedxupxinxknots]

WRONG. Creating a enigma without the syndrom means that gecko will live a normal life. BUT BUT BUT EVERY enigma to date will still have it. Just because we can create a enigma without ES doesnt mean all the enigmas suffering from it are magicaly cured. They dont benifit. And the ES free enigma is not beniffiting anymore then a regular normal(morph) leopard gecko. They never had the syndrom, they didnt suffer. If we want to create leos without ES, we already have them.

I never said all of the enigmas that have it would magically cured llol. And exacly they do benefit because they are NORMAL.

 

[Dimidiata]

Theres no point in making them normal, we can produce normal leopard geckos without the enigam gene, they honestly dont care what color thay are. Lets remember that enigmas are just leopardgeckos with a neuro condition. There is no benifit for this line if we make them normal, we lose how many on the way there. Then if we stopped breeding them and produced nonenigma animals with out the syndrom. The species would benifit from us producing more of them without ES then producing even 1 more of them with it. This isnt a benifit to them.

 

[tiedxupxinxknots]

Theres no point in making them normal, we can produce normal leopard geckos without the enigam gene, they honestly dont care what color thay are. Lets remember that enigmas are just leopardgeckos with a neuro condition. There is no benifit for this line if we make them normal, we lose how many on the way there. Then if we stopped breeding them and produced nonenigma animals with out the syndrom. The species would benifit from us producing more of them without ES then producing even 1 more of them with it. This isnt a benifit to them.

It may be impossible to create, but in the end their is a point. Yes you can produce normal geckos without the enigma gene, that much is obvious, but people want the enigma's color enhancer in a normal gecko. I am just going to end it here because I don't want to argue about a "what if this happened conversation".

 

[Dimidiata]

"what if this happened conversation".

Agreed. That would go on forever. No will give up their opinion easily. Anyone who does never held it strong in the first place. Always fun to have these debates everytime someone says the E word.

 

[NinjaDuo]

WRONG. Creating a enigma without the syndrom means that gecko will live a normal life. BUT BUT BUT EVERY enigma to date will still have it. Just because we can create a enigma without ES doesnt mean all the enigmas suffering from it are magicaly cured. They dont benifit. And the ES free enigma is not beniffiting anymore then a regular normal(morph) leopard gecko. They never had the syndrom, they didnt suffer. If we want to create leos without ES, we already have them.

Suffer how? If someone doesn't care for them properly, sure. Can you point me in the direction of the source you obtained this conclusion from?

Suffering from es, or from poor care?

 

[Dimidiata]

. I am just going to end it here because I don't want to argue about a "what if this happened conversation".

^

 

[NinjaDuo]

^

This is not a what if question? Do you have sources?

 

[Dimidiata]

sources are not need to tell you that if an animal must be euthenized due to the syndrom, they were suffering. I dont think these guys particularly like star gazing or not being able to hold their heads straight, or being unable to stop turning in circles. Sure, some enigmas dont show these symptoms bad enough to need euthenization, but some do and thats not fair to them.