Incompatibilities w/ Bell (Blizzard and Murphy Patternless)

[Baoh]

Has it been determined why there seems to have been an apparent lack of success with producing Bell Patternless and Bell Blazing Blizzards? In the case of Blazing Blizzards, I would assume many have tried by now and it seems like there may well be some sort of biological barrier occurring such as some manner of lethal limiting step. I don't know if that is also the case for Bell Patternless projects or if it simply hasn't been widely pursued. If you have attempted these crosses or know those who have, please weigh in with your take on what you think might be going on.

Thanks.

 

[Ian S.]

There are not any biological barriers. The bell albino was the latest of the albino strains introduced, and very few worked with them when they were. New morphs have been introduced at the fastest pace than they ever have, and bad luck are the main factors. There hasn't been a murphy's patternless bell hatched however there has been a bell blizzard produced. I believe we will see the patternless bell this year as well. I have till January. lol

 

[Baoh]

There are not any biological barriers. The bell albino was the latest of the albino strains introduced, and very few worked with them when they were. New morphs have been introduced at the fastest pace than they ever have, and bad luck are the main factors. There hasn't been a murphy's patternless bell hatched however there has been a bell blizzard produced. I believe we will see the patternless bell this year as well. I have till January. lol

Have we seen evidence of there not being a postzygotic problem?

I thought several people have tried to make Bell Blazing Blizzards and the only one that made it to hatching died shortly afterward. Is that incorrect?

As for the Bell Patternless, I was going by the wiki. I'd like it if the Bell Patternless is feasible, but I would like to see evidence if or when it becomes available.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

I thought several people have tried to make Bell Blazing Blizzards and the only one that made it to hatching died shortly afterward. Is that incorrect?

There's since been another hatched, and to my knowledge it's still alive. Pictures in this thread.

As for the Bell Patternless, I was going by the wiki. I'd like it if the Bell Patternless is feasible, but I would like to see evidence if or when it becomes available.

I haven't seen a picture of a Bell Patternless Albino. Not sure one has been produced to date.

 

[Ian S.]

Yes the first ever Bell Blazing hatched did die unfortunately. Can't wait to see updates of Geckosetc.

 

[Baoh]

There's since been another hatched, and to my knowledge it's still alive. Pictures in this thread.



I haven't seen a picture of a Bell Patternless Albino. Not sure one has been produced to date.

Awesome.

That's evidence a-plenty for me.

Thanks.

 

[godzillizard]

some genes snuggle well with each other and others can't stand each others company. (especially from hets/scratch) hows that for a technical explanation It's best to combine genes after they have had their "bugs" worked out...

Have we seen evidence of there not being a postzygotic problem?

All of these new morphs: from simple 'albinos' to super snow Blazing blizzard enigmas are all technically lethal traits in a natural environment, so they all have 'postzygotic problems'...

 

[Baoh]

some genes snuggle well with each other and others can't stand each others company. (especially from hets/scratch) hows that for a technical explanation It's best to combine genes after they have had their "bugs" worked out...

All of these new morphs: from simple 'albinos' to super snow Blazing blizzard enigmas are all technically lethal traits in a natural environment, so they all have 'postzygotic problems'...

A lethal mutation or trait does not refer to that.

 

[godzillizard]

A lethal mutation or trait does not refer to that.

Technically these mutations would be classified as "conditional" lethal mutations, as their physiological effects generally aren't enough to stop them from reproducing. The definition of a lethal mutation is a mutation that causes an animal to die before it reproduces. Not that they don't hatch out, but they simply wouldn't last long if we weren't protecting them.

With the tremper strain, producing blazings from scratch proved incredibly difficult, and combining the patternless gene with the Tremper gene took even more eggs...

 

[Baoh]

Technically these mutations would be classified as "conditional" lethal mutations, as their physiological effects generally aren't enough to stop them from reproducing. The definition of a lethal mutation is a mutation that causes an animal to die before it reproduces. Not that they don't hatch out, but they simply wouldn't last long if we weren't protecting them.

With the tremper strain, producing blazings from scratch proved incredibly difficult, and combining the patternless gene with the Tremper gene took even more eggs...

By definition, through extension, all alleles can be considered conditionally lethal, which gives the description no genuine meaning.

 

[Paco]

Boah... You also seem to have a very strong understanding of genetics. If you don't mind me asking what is your genetics backround? The reason I ask is you have proposed some serious genetic questions that oters here have no Idea what you are talking about.

Here is a quote from Paul H. from another thread

"A mutant gene is sublethal if it doesn't kill the possessor before sexual maturity but makes the possessor less likely to survive and pass on its genes in the wild than a normal creature is. Such genes can be dominant, codominant, or recessive to the normal version of the gene. There are too many ways to be sublethal than I can write. Bell albino in leopard geckos is a sublethal. Waltzing in mice makes the mouse spin in circles. Rex causes short, curly fur in cats, which is less warm in winter. Extra toes occur in a variety of mammals and birds and make it more difficult to walk. All can be considered injurious to health and survival if humans do not interfere."

 

[Baoh]

I am a Biologist by education and and Research and Development Scientist (Pharmaceutical Biologics) by trade. I'd say my knowledge of genetics is occasionally adequate. It could always be much stronger. I always wanted to be involved in genomic research when I was younger, but realized in time that proteomics is a subfield with greater applicable utility. Anyway, enough of my rambling. I am here to learn more than anything else. I think everyone has something potentially useful to contribute.

 

[paulh]

By definition, through extension, all alleles can be considered conditionally lethal, which gives the description no genuine meaning.

Sure, everything dies eventually. So we have to make a comparison, which is usually to the wild type (AKA normal or standard type).

And if you don't like sublethal, too, you can use a more or less synonymous term like harmful, deleterious, or detrimental. They can even be qualified with terms like slightly or very.

Even when individual mutant types survive as well as the normals in captivity, a combination of mutants may be detrimental to survival compared to either normal or the parental types. Linkage can reduce the probability of getting a combination of two mutants, particularly recessive mutants. And we must not leave out simple bad luck.

Geckos reproduce slowly enough that any of these can affect humans' perception of how difficult it is to get a combination, especially at the beginning.

 

[godzillizard]

I am here to learn more than anything else. I think everyone has something potentially useful to contribute.

Except me?!? if you want to overthink things to the point of apathy go right ahead, if you want to know what people have experienced while attempting to combine specific genes in one specimen, I'm telling you--there IS linkage issues with murphy patternless and Blizzard when in concert with any of the 3 known "albino" genes. 1 in 200 odds are the best to be expected when breeding double hets together. Once the genes have been successfully combined, the offspring of that double homo gecko (regardless of phenotype) will dramatically increase those odds (when bred to double hets). Consider that what you think you know may be eclipsing the stuff you don't...

 

[Baoh]

Sure, everything dies eventually. So we have to make a comparison, which is usually to the wild type (AKA normal or standard type).

And if you don't like sublethal, too, you can use a more or less synonymous term like harmful, deleterious, or detrimental. They can even be qualified with terms like slightly or very.

Even when individual mutant types survive as well as the normals in captivity, a combination of mutants may be detrimental to survival compared to either normal or the parental types. Linkage can reduce the probability of getting a combination of two mutants, particularly recessive mutants. And we must not leave out simple bad luck.

Geckos reproduce slowly enough that any of these can affect humans' perception of how difficult it is to get a combination, especially at the beginning.

All evolution requires mutation. All hereditary adaptation requires it.

This survival issue is not something I am limiting to captive conditions. Rather, I am referring to wild conditions as well.

Otherwise, I do not disagree with your post.

 

[Baoh]

Except me?!? if you want to overthink things to the point of apathy go right ahead, if you want to know what people have experienced while attempting to combine specific genes in one specimen, I'm telling you--there IS linkage issues with murphy patternless and Blizzard when in concert with any of the 3 known "albino" genes. 1 in 200 odds are the best to be expected when breeding double hets together. Once the genes have been successfully combined, the offspring of that double homo gecko (regardless of phenotype) will dramatically increase those odds (when bred to double hets). Consider that what you think you know may be eclipsing the stuff you don't...

Except you? What are you talking about? Why the emotional overreaction?

Do you know what apathy means? "Overthinking", if such a thing could occur, would not lead to apathy. Paralysis by analysis due to too many divergent paths of thought, perhaps, but not apathy.

"...there IS linkage issues with murphy patternless and Blizzard when in concert with any of the 3 known "albino" genes."

You are telling me there are, and I am considering it, but absolute acceptance requires more than just someone saying so without evidence involving what is called statistical power.

"1 in 200 odds are the best to be expected when breeding double hets together."

Reference? Unless you can prove the linkage you speak of, simple genetics say that the odds are better than you claim.

Please leave overexpressions of emotion out of these conversations. If you cannot, I'd rather only read than post at all.

 

[Paco]

Except you? What are you talking about? Why the emotional overreaction?

Do you know what apathy means? "Overthinking", if such a thing could occur, would not lead to apathy. Paralysis by analysis due to too many divergent paths of thought, perhaps, but not apathy.

"...there IS linkage issues with murphy patternless and Blizzard when in concert with any of the 3 known "albino" genes."

You are telling me there are, and I am considering it, but absolute acceptance requires more than just someone saying so without evidence involving what is called statistical power.

"1 in 200 odds are the best to be expected when breeding double hets together."

Reference? Unless you can prove the linkage you speak of, simple genetics say that the odds are better than you claim.

Please leave overexpressions of emotion out of these conversations. If you cannot, I'd rather only read than post at all.

Boah... You will come to learn Brian is one of the more vocal members on this forum. LOL He is very Knowledgable about genetics and has a very good grasp of the Leo market and what goes on as far as genetics and breeding. He is a respected member here. I think he forgets sometime's that he has as much knowledge and info as he does and some people need a little more than what just someone says. Especially if they really don't know the person that is responding and their backround. You will come to learn that there a few members here that if they say something you can allmost take it to the bank. Sometimes it can be hard to interpert what other's are trying to convey through the internet as well.

 

[KelliH]

I don't think there are any incompatibility issues... just bad odds/luck. What evidence does anyone have that there are incompatibility issues anyway?

 

[Ian S.]

I'ld also like to know as well. The only link that the murphy's patternless has with the blizzard is the fact that they were test bred with blizzards in order to prove that they were not just a light patternless. Therefore creating the proven double homo bannana blizzards.

I'm telling you--there IS linkage issues with murphy patternless and Blizzard when in concert with any of the 3 known "albino" genes.

The only link here is the fact that...they link just fine once the 1 in 200 odds are hit. The only way to justify that comment would be to "overthink things to the point of apathy" against what has been proven with all double recessive traits.

 

[Ian S.]

In your defense however, it has been a hauling road creating blazings and albino patternless. Theoretically or as you would call it "overthinking" I believe it is simply due to the lack of visual ques in the morphs themselves in concert with the odds and the number of people working on the crack.