Incompatibilities w/ Bell (Blizzard and Murphy Patternless)

[paulh]

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_linkage

 

[Gregg M]

Bottom line is that there were way more people working on mixing trempers and rainwaters with blizzards an patternless long before bell albinos became popular. It seems to me that there were relatively few people working with bell albinos before the Enigma hit the scene.

So my point is that we do not see bells mixed with the blizzards and patternless because it is the newer of the albino strains and the fact that not many worked with them up until maybe 3 years ago.

Also, in my opinion, these crosses may not be tried as often because it will just be another albino blizzard or albino patternless and the market is already flooded with them in the other two albino strains.

 

[Morph]

very good points gregg.

this has been an interesting read

 

[Baoh]

Boah... You will come to learn Brian is one of the more vocal members on this forum. LOL He is very Knowledgable about genetics and has a very good grasp of the Leo market and what goes on as far as genetics and breeding. He is a respected member here. I think he forgets sometime's that he has as much knowledge and info as he does and some people need a little more than what just someone says. Especially if they really don't know the person that is responding and their backround. You will come to learn that there a few members here that if they say something you can allmost take it to the bank. Sometimes it can be hard to interpert what other's are trying to convey through the internet as well.

I will be happy to read any information he provides on this and other topics. However, I'm not going to bend to an appeal to authority, no matter the background. It's the same with my colleagues. Everything needs to be backed up. I will accept things as anecdote and even value these anecdotal accounts. I just won't take them as absolute truth unless the evidence is clearly referenced in some way. No offense to anyone.

It is expected of me and I expect it of others.

 

[KelliH]

Bottom line is that there were way more people working on mixing trempers and rainwaters with blizzards an patternless long before bell albinos became popular. It seems to me that there were relatively few people working with bell albinos before the Enigma hit the scene.

So my point is that we do not see bells mixed with the blizzards and patternless because it is the newer of the albino strains and the fact that not many worked with them up until maybe 3 years ago.

Also, in my opinion, these crosses may not be tried as often because it will just be another albino blizzard or albino patternless and the market is already flooded with them in the other two albino strains.

Yes, yes, and yes, excellent post!

 

[godzillizard]

Reference? Unless you can prove the linkage you speak of, simple genetics say that the odds are better than you claim.

I don't have to site my sources, you can either take it or leave it. I apologize if I came off like a know it all, I'm far from an authority on anything, but I do know what I love.

Everything needs to be backed up. I will accept things as anecdote and even value these anecdotal accounts. I just won't take them as absolute truth unless the evidence is clearly referenced in some way. No offense to anyone.

I'm the same way, I need tangible proof. I just find it odd that you're expecting to find absolute truths with the internet

 

[Baoh]

I don't have to site my sources, you can either take it or leave it. I apologize if I came off like a know it all, I'm far from an authority on anything, but I do know what I love.


I'm the same way, I need tangible proof. I just find it odd that you're expecting to find absolute truths with the internet

Well, the burden of proof is always upon the individual making the claim.

 

[Gregg M]

I don't have to site my sources, you can either take it or leave it.

Actually, you really should site your sources. Anyone on any real level that gives info other than general knowledge would site the source of their info so it can be backed up. You have not stated anything that can be backed up. You stated your opinion based on nothing more than speculation.
Also, its funny when people put a precentage on something with nothing at all to back it up. In this case the real precentage is much different than what you stated.
So seriously, unless you can site scientific literature or proven statistics that backs up what you are saying you should represent what you state as it is. PURE OPINION!!!

 

[godzillizard]

Well, the burden of proof is always upon the individual making the claim.

you are an incredibly difficult person to contribute to...

You stated your opinion based on nothing more than speculation.

funny thing is your speculating that I'm speculating! my info came straight from the mouth of the man who first produced some of the morphs in question...so I'll ask my "source" if he's cool with me posting his 'findings' and get back to this post. Not everyone is out to skew the facts just to inflate their egos...

 

[Baoh]

you are an incredibly difficult person to contribute to...

If you are having a difficult time providing evidence for a claim you have stated, look somewhere else beyond me when trying to assign a cause. Appeals to authority are not evidence and do not speak to a claim's legitimacy.

 

[supperl]

isn´t impossible to proof linkage problems just by breeding? I mean only with odds? Couldn´t someone that breed het Albino*het Albino only get normals just because of Bad luck?
And has for example Albey with it´s Enigma BB needed over 200 Babies for his Project? And even if so, is 1 out of 200 realy bad when having the 1 out of 16 chance every time again? Would that proof problems?

 

[Paco]

isn´t impossible to proof linkage problems just by breeding? I mean only with odds? Couldn´t someone that breed het Albino*het Albino only get normals just because of Bad luck?
And has for example Albey with it´s Enigma BB needed over 200 Babies for his Project? And even if so, is 1 out of 200 realy bad when having the 1 out of 16 chance every time again? Would that proof problems?

Thorsten... The Odds for a Double het Animal should be 1 in 16 from the start. So I would say that 1 in 200 is pretty bad odds regardless.

If those are Albey's odds what percentage of the eggs did not make it full term? That never seems to be taken into account either. Could be anohter 100 eggs involved as well for all we know?

And If those are the odds for most who started with any of the Orignal Blizzard het projects, regardless of Albino Strain and they had the same problems and outcomes, I would believe that there is more than just bad luck involed in all the projects.

We may never know any linkage issues in the future. the testing expenses are way to high to justify, even for the Serious breeders.

 

[supperl]

Well but you have this 1out of 16 chance at every single egg again. It´s not just like I have hatched 15 non BB so next must be. I think 200 babies to produce something like that isn´t realy bad.
You can´t expect to have every 16th baby a BB in my opinion.
BTW this has nothing to do with realy genetics work(my post) it´s just what I´m thinking. I can´t proof nothing same as most others here can´t proove their thoughts about this.
Their could be linkage problems right but also badluck(even though I don´t think 200 for 1 is bad at all).

EDIT: I thought over Albey, I guess he hadn´t paired het*het so it won´t be a point here I guess.

So how many eggs did it take for the first ones to breed BB and PA with the 2 lines?

 

[godzillizard]

Paco has another good point here--how many eggs simply didn't hatch out? that is another something noone wants to talk about...

 

[Paco]

Well but you have this 1out of 16 chance at every single egg again. It´s not just like I have hatched 15 non BB so next must be. I think 200 babies to produce something like that isn´t realy bad.
You can´t expect to have every 16th baby a BB in my opinion.
BTW this has nothing to do with realy genetics work(my post) it´s just what I´m thinking. I can´t proof nothing same as most others here can´t proove their thoughts about this.
Their could be linkage problems right but also badluck(even though I don´t think 200 for 1 is bad at all).

EDIT: I thought over Albey, I guess he hadn´t paired het*het so it won´t be a point here I guess.

So how many eggs did it take for the first ones to breed BB and PA with the 2 lines?

I would never expect to get a 1:16 odds ever time. These are just satistical outcomes. But you are hoping for something close.

But if you look the outcome #'s that breedrers have had it makes you wonder what is going on here? They should be much better. Even 1:32 is double the odds and they are not even close to this.

Take a look at all the other Double het Morphs that exist's in other reptiles for example. We will use Ball pythons for an example because I know the most about their morphs.

I don't think I have seen any odds even close to any of those #'s we are seeing in the Leo's.

Allmost Every Ball Python Double het project has panned out with excellent result's. I don't think any ball breeder could waste time and resources to only get a 1 in 200 odds. Most are hitting the 1:16 odds regularly. I don't think Luck is the only factor that makes these combos pan out.

You know how many snakes you would need for projects like this and the room and food it would take. I mean 1 adult Ball's cage is bigger than the Largest Leo tub that could support 6-8 Adult leos.

I think there is more than bad luck here, but that is my opinion.

 

[paulh]

Linkage testing is not rocket science. It just requires lots of breeding and recording the appearance of a couple of hundred babies as they come along. The hardest part is sticking with the project.

You need an individual (preferably a male) that is
---a-b--
---a-b--
and mate him to some females that are
---A-B--
---a-b--
and some females that are
---A-b--
---a-B--

 

[Paco]

Linkage testing is not rocket science. It just requires lots of breeding and recording the appearance of a couple of hundred babies as they come along. The hardest part is sticking with the project.

You need an individual (preferably a male) that is
---a-b--
---a-b--
and mate him to some females that are
---A-B--
---a-b--
and some females that are
---A-b--
---a-B--

Paul it may not be rocket science but it looks as though there is a tremendous amount of work thats needs to be done to do so.

Exactly how would you go about recording this info? Would every little difference between animals be recorded?

I mean if all the offspring look similar in appearance how would you know if a particular trait was passed on?

 

[Gregg M]

Ok, so what about when I bred my double het to double het and got a Las Vegas BB with solid eyes in the first clutch??? There were obviously no "linkage" issues there...

It all has to do with luck. Statistical odds are just that. It does not mean you will hit those odds. 1 in 16 statistic can easily turn into 1 in 200 reality.

Take 16 cups and put one ball under one of the cups. Have some one mix up all the cups and lift one. If you do not lift the one with the ball under it, have some one mix them up again and lift another cup. Do this until you lift a cup with the ball under it.

1 in 16 odds are not good odds at all. Infact, they are pretty bad odds.

So anyone saying it is more than bad luck or there is a linkage issue is just stating an opinion... An uneducated one at that.

The simple fact that there are examples of double recessive leos would indicate there are no linkage problems at all...

 

[supperl]

Paco that´s a good point with the BallPythons.How many eggs how many clutches a Year?

But again I think 1 out of 200 isn´t bad for het² but I think it is someones own opinion to say if it is good or bad.

Gregg hat a fantastic szenariomodel made with his cupüs and the one Ball

 

[paulh]

Paul it may not be rocket science but it looks as though there is a tremendous amount of work thats needs to be done to do so.

Exactly how would you go about recording this info? Would every little difference between animals be recorded?

I mean if all the offspring look similar in appearance how would you know if a particular trait was passed on?

There is a lot of work, but it's basically routine. If one male can service 4 females, and each female averages 10 babies per year, then five years production from this one group equals 200 babies.

Actually there would have to be two groups. In one, the females would be
---A-B--
---a-b--
and the females in the second group would be
---A-b--
---a-B--

How hard is it to keep 10-20 breeding geckos? The babies would be sold off, of course.

Records can be simple. Two sheets, one for each of the two types of female. Across the top mark it aa bb, Aa bb, aa Bb, and Aa Bb. Down the side mark the clutch number and mother, though mother is optional. When the babies hatch, mark the the number of babies in each of the four genotypes.

Even if the aa bb, Aa bb, and aa Bb geckos looked alike, the Aa Bb geckos would look normal.

I did some figuring on odds. There is a 99% probability of getting at least one aa bb gecko in 75 babies from double hets, assuming no linkage or other factor. So if that 1 in 200 figure is anywhere close to accurate, it is considerably off what I'd expect.