IS It Ok To Treat Our Geckos Prophylactically and/Or Without Knowing What is Wrong???

[KelliH]

I just saw a thread on the BOI about someone that had a snake that he thought had an upper respiratory infection. He did not take it to the vet but told the seller that the snake was sick and the seller sent him a medication called Baytril. He dosed the animal himself with the medicine and shortly after the snake died. Some are speculating that he may have overdosed the snake. Even though Baytril for example is just a broad spectrum antibiotic but it is VERY hard on the kidneys, and it can do more harm than good if given when not needed.

I was just wondering how you guys feel about treating our geckos without really knowing what is wrong.

 

[robin]

no way would i treat with things like baytril, albon, or flagyl (and other medications) with out first seeing a vet. some of these medicines can VERY easily be overdosed and also sometimes animals need to be hydrated and flushed with fluids in conjunction. i would not do any of this with first consulting a vet. this is live or die type of thing. i think some people think the medications are safe and that there is room for error but in many cases there isnt. the SMALLEST bit can overdose an animal and kill it.

 

[KelliH]

I think panacur is so safe I have no problem using it without first knowing it is needed (or maybe once a year as a preventative) but Baytril, Flagty and Albon, no way!

Also, if using a medication like Baytril on a regular basis, even if there is no infection or the infection is the wrong kind to be cured with Baytril, could that now cause the animal or animals to become "immune or resistant" to the antibiotic.

 

[fallen_angel]

I would never try to self-medicate one of our animnals without knowing what is wrong or being 100% sure. I don't see a problem with panacur either, it can come in handy and it's good to give the entire collection a dose at least once per year, as you said.

There are many different home remedies and medicines that you can buy for most things; like the panacur, liquid calcium for MBD, eye medications, etc. Leopard geckos especially are pretty hardy and only need vet assistance for very severe cases, like egg-binding, severe impaction, gout, etc.

If one of our animals has an issue, I will see if there are any home remedies or products I can buy online first. Of course there are times when the veterinary visit is essential, and when that is the case, they get an appointment.

I keep medicines from vet visits on hand until they expire, should I need them. I had a female with severe gout that was given pain meds, which I still have. This stuff came in handy for other animals that needed to be euthanized. I use the usual fridgerator-freezer method of euthanization, but I also gave the geckos some pain meds before-hand just to knock them out a little bit. The thought of putting them in the fridge, then freezer, for a deep sleep really bothers me no matter how humane it is. I felt better using the pain meds prior to doing so. Course, this is kind of a tangent from the topic.

 

[robin]

Also, if using a medication like Baytril on a regular basis, even if there is no infection or the infection is the wrong kind to be cured with Baytril, could that now cause the animal or animals to become "immune or resistant" to the antibiotic.

could it cause a break down of the immune system causing the animal more susceptible to infection or parasitic loads?

also obtaining and/or using the medications without first seeing the vet is illegal.

 

[JordanAng420]

Panacur is a safe drug, however...an animal who is on a panacur regimen needs to be properly hydrated. Too much panacur without a source of hydration can cause major issues, everything from dysecdesis (improper shedding) to kidney issues.

I agree with robin here:

no way would i treat with things like baytril, albon, or flagyl (and other medications) with out first seeing a vet. some of these medicines can VERY easily be overdosed and also sometimes animals need to be hydrated and flushed with fluids in conjunction. i would not do any of this with first consulting a vet. this is live or die type of thing. i think some people think the medications are safe and that there is room for error but in many cases there isnt. the SMALLEST bit can overdose an animal and kill it.

I don't think a lot of people realize that some of these drugs have concentrations and suspensions to dose humans, dogs or cats, even horses! It's so easy to make a mistake and put the decimal point in the wrong place. I did this one time, but it was a much more serious case. I was to give a heart medication called Lasix to a chihuahua, and I quickly jotted down the math for the dosage. Well, come to find out, I put the decimal point in the wrong place and I ended up giving the dog 4cc of Lasix instead of 0.4cc. BIG difference. The dog was fine after 2 days of hospitalization, but my boss made ME explain the entire situation. Served me right. I've never done anything like that ever again.

My point is, those of you out there who insist on playing doctor and dosing out your own medications, you are playing russian roulette. While you may THINK you know what you're doing, there's a reason the doctors and certified techs went to school for as long as we did.

And Baytril, was stated as a "mild" antibiotic in the Fauna thread. It is FAR from mild. Baytril can be highly nephrotoxic and can cause permenent blindness if used improperly. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. It does work, but it works when it's used properly SHORT TERM. And the guy in that thread that said he knows a vet who used to sell it at a reptile show... that vet should be shot.

 

[robin]

And Baytril, was stated as a "mild" antibiotic in the Fauna thread. It is FAR from mild. Baytril can be highly nephrotoxic and can cause permenent blindness if used improperly. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. It does work, but it works when it's used properly SHORT TERM. And the guy in that thread that said he knows a vet who used to sell it at a reptile show... that vet should be shot.

not only blindness but it can be lethal if overdosed. i agree with you on the vet thing and we have not even discussed the legality issues.

 

[sablebeauty]

can you use Fenbendazole on lizards or just the panacur?

 

[robin]

can you use Fenbendazole on lizards or just the panacur?

Panacure is the brand name of Fenbendazole

 

[sablebeauty]

Panacure is the brand name of Fenbendazole

ah.... see now i feel silly, LOL!

 

[robin]

ah.... see now i feel silly, LOL!

don't feel silly.

 

[RampantReptiles]

I would not use panacur unless I knew for sure that my gecko had a parasite problem. And further I would prefer to know what type of parasite.

I think dosing all your geckos once a year is a bad idea. By subjecting your geckos to medications when it is unnecessary contributes to the problem of parasites and bacteria mutating and becoming immune or resistant to medicines. I would only use medication if it is necessary and no other time.

Not to mention how do you dose the panacur? When you have a parasite problem you usually treat at a certain dosage for a duration of time. This duration should be until there are no symptoms and/or slightly beyond that point?

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, especially vet techs that know what they are talking about.

 

[KelliH]

I would not use panacur unless I knew for sure that my gecko had a parasite problem. And further I would prefer to know what type of parasite.

I think dosing all your geckos once a year is a bad idea. By subjecting your geckos to medications when it is unnecessary contributes to the problem of parasites and bacteria mutating and becoming immune or resistant to medicines. I would only use medication if it is necessary and no other time.

Not to mention how do you dose the panacur? When you have a parasite problem you usually treat at a certain dosage for a duration of time. This duration should be until there are no symptoms and/or slightly beyond that point?

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, especially vet techs that know what they are talking about.

I absolutely agree with you about dosing once a year as a preventative. I think there is no reason to give medication unless there is a problem.

 

[sablebeauty]

how often do you treat them with the panacur if they do have parasites?

 

[robin]

how often do you treat them with the panacur if they do have parasites?

i do not think this thread is about about dosing, how often or without an diagnosis. it is in fact quite the opposite. i dont think you will be seeing any dosing schedules in it.

 

[fallen_angel]

I know a few people that use Panacur as a preventative. The Panacur we have is for horses, I am not sure if you can find the paste in any other form when you buy online. I have read that it's very hard to overdose Panacur, and we only use very small amounts, obviously. When we had a gecko go to a vet for worms (before we got our own) they were given Panacur and we were told to give the gecko one dose per week for a few weeks, then see the vet again. If the problem does not decrease, I would assume you would need to try something else or just keep continuing the dosage every week. Our gecko was on it for a couple of months but he actually passed away because the parasites had spread to his organs.

We had a couple of geckos last season that got parasites and so that's when I bought the Panacur we have now. They got one dosage per week and recovered within 3-4 weeks.

--------------------

As for Baytril, isn't that the drug that Bonnie needed for Lemsip, and it started eating away his skin? I know she got it from a vet and everything; but if I remember correctly, I think it was Baytril and even the vet was wary to have to use it, just had no other choice.

 

[fallen_angel]

I absolutely agree with you about dosing once a year as a preventative. I think there is no reason to give medication unless there is a problem.

I think panacur is so safe I have no problem using it without first knowing it is needed (or maybe once a year as a preventative) but Baytril, Flagty and Albon, no way!

I thought you did use Panacur as a preventative?

 

[RampantReptiles]

My question was meant how do you dose as a preventative?

If a gecko has a parasite but the load is not enough to effect the geckos health and then the gecko is dosed with the medication but not enough to kill the parasite. Then the parasite will have been exposed to the medication and build up defenses against it, making the medication less effective or in some cases useless.

Over medicating is a huge problem in the fish world. Tons of people own fish and dont take care of them properly and then their fish get sick so they buy medicine. Some people dont buy the right medicine, they assume everything white must be ick lol. Or they dont treat for long enough, thinking they got it all but then it comes back less than a week later(there are other reasons as well as not getting it all but I wont get into that).

I would say the best preventative methods are keeping a clean, low stress environment. As well as using natural preventatives if there are any available. What comes to mind is people using epsom/aquarium salt for fish, this helps build the slime coat which is a natural defense against disease and parasites. Also keeping in mind that it has to be used in moderation, many fish are sensitive to salt and it should only be added after a water change. If there were anything like this for reptiles/geckos then I would love to hear about it.

 

[BGalloway]

I have to say I agree with Michelle (aka +1) about using dewormers "as a preventative".

I don't know about fish, but misuse of dewormers in livestock is one of THE BIGGEST causes of PARASITIC RESISTANCE in livestock. It for exactly the reasons stated above. People give too small of a dose or don't complete the treatment and then all the surviving parasites are those resistant to the dewormer.

In livestock there's a saying, 20% of the animals carry 80% of the parasites. That means if only one or two animals are showing symptoms you probably don't need to deworm your entire collection.

Anyways, my thinking is do not give dewormer prophylactically or without knowing what is wrong. Also don't stop an antibiotic or anthelmintic treatment halfway through, complete the full course.

I don't know of any natural preventatives for worms in reptiles other than sanitary housing conditions to break the fecal-oral life cycle of most parasites.

 

[fallen_angel]

If I were to use it as a preventative, I would say do it once per week for 3-4 weeks each year. The people that I know that do it have been in the hobby for several years and know what they're doing.. I have thought about doing it but so far have only given Panacur to those that appeared to be affected by parasites.

I agree that the best preventative is to keep the cages as clean as possible, but things can and will happen.