Leopard gecko breeding is tough....and expensive.

[ghiigh33]

This might be a good sticky thread for people to read who are contemplating leo breeding....

This is a thread meant for anyone thinking about breeding leos. This is not to discourage, but merely to explain what you are getting into. Yes, it is enjoyable, but as you will find out, comes at a cost.

I had owned leopard geckos for about 2 and a half years before I started to think about breeding them. I did about 6-8 months of research and thought it was something that seemed relatively easy and (FOOLISHLY) inexpensive. I idiotically figured my total for a startup to be somewhee around 300 or so dollars. After deciding to purchase my new breeders, i got drawn into the idea of breding for special traits, which in my case happens to be the Bell albino trait. So there goes a good heaping chunk of money. I purchased 3 beautiful geckos from Steve Sykes ver at Geckos Etc. One male tangerine bell albino and two females, one bell and one hypo tangerine het radar het bell het eclipse. Put them into a 40 gallon tank. I quickly realized that my 10-20 gal zoo med heater was ust not going to be enough as i noticed the geckos huddling together on that one patch of floor space where the heater was. Bought another heater, this time one more than suitable and they love it. (50-60 gal zoo med). There goes another chunk of cash out of my wallet...the poor thing just keeps losing weight. Ok now the next problem is that the male, who was supposed to be the small colonie's breeder, is trying to breed with them before they have even eaten yet. Out he goes into another tank by himself. $$$ So now i have a new struggle. Based on all of the pros i had read about feeding mealies and supers, i left them in both of the tanks for about 2.5 weeks and they wouldn't eat them. Thankfully, Steve advised me to use large crickets to get them to feed. Bought some,$$$, and put them in and the male gobbled them up. The females on the other hand, did not get along very well and neither would eat. A week later, I finally got the females to each take food and waited a while longer and then I introduced them one by one into the males tank. First female introducing was perfect. Lets just say it went well and took only a few minutes. Now the other female. Nope. This would become an issue later on. She did not mate and i later came to the conclusion she was not ovulating. It took meabout a month of work, paper towel trick, switching hides, cooling, to get her to ovulate. But finally she did and she still would not accept the male. I was advised to leave her in the males tank for about 5-7 days to see if they would get it done. Yes it worked but what i just summed up in a few sentences was really a month offrustration over this girl not cooperating. Well lets go back about 2 weeks. The first bred female is beggining to show eggs under her belly. For some reason she hates the other female in her presence and begins to fight. Fighting gravid female=bad thing. I move the other female into a whole new setup. ($$$$$$$). So what started as one small breeding group in a 40 gal on one shelf now becomes 3 separate tanks. and more money out of my poor wallet. Ok so now what....oh yeah. The first bred female lays her first clutch. Very exciting. So i go in and pick them up and immediately attempt to candle. (again foolosh...) Drop one egg from about 2 feet up onto a hard tank floor. Great. But the good news is that both candle completely fertile, great big red bullseye in the center. Yeah thats right i forgot to mark the tops. So i wing it, after much foolish rotating during candling, and throw them in the bator....which by the way is a cooler and fish tank heater. Mistake. Well, the dropped one goes bad in about 3 days and i toss it. The other one is goig strong. Now I decide to get a real "dependable" incubator after deciding that my made one wasn't too good (which was true). So i get a.........hovabator......($$$$$$$) MISTAKE. So now to monitor it i buy a thermometer. ($$) Ok well the hovabator starts fluctuating like crazy and kills my eggs.... Anyway, another issue that new breeders may not think about is this. That female i mentioned earlier? Well so far i have gotten two clutches from her. Both infertile. Remember, just because you get eggs doesn't mean they will hatch. You can still screw up perfectly good eggs like i did... Ok and by the way just add on a good chunk of money for things i forgot to mention, like the fifty tupperware containers i got for egg boxes and moist hides or like the calcium powderi got, or like the digital scale i got to monitor my geckos weights and the amount of water to add to perlite, oh and the perlite and the sphagnum moss for the egg boxes oh and the.....well you get the idea! So now i decide that its pretty exciting, but i am not geting enough production, and this is still in the time where the one female would not ovulate, so i figure i better buy 3 more females to increase egg production. ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)!!!!!!!
The three come and i move them into the 40 gal as a group. So out goes the 40 gal one female into another NEW tank setup...($$$$) And in go the 3 new ones. Well, learning from my previous mistake, i feed crickets immediately and they eat and are accustomed within a week. Breed them and it goes a bit differently.....in different ways. The first one i breed is successful and done quickly. That female later would produce a perfectly healthy clutch that is fertile and i now have nicely cooking in my bator. The next one still confuses me. An uneventful, quick breeding takes place. She shows no signs of being gravid for a few weeks so i re introduce her. About 5.5 weeks later, which is today, i believe she is gravid but it still confuses me. Anyway, the next female is bred and she is now gravid and i am expecting her to lay literally any second...seriously. Ok so take it back 2 weeks from today. I have a few clutches in my hova and my first egg ever in the cooler. That dies. ****!!! my hova kills the rest because my house temps fluctuate a LOT! So now im gonna need to drop another chunk a cash for a real quality incubator. I ordered a reptipro 6000 and it arrived yesterday and it works great and t really looks awesome too. oh yeah i forgot...($$$$$$$$$$) Ok so wrapping it up, there are probably about 15-20 other smaller issues i did not mention in this writing.
In conclusion, leo breeding is not easy. It is stressful, confusing, problem saturated, time consuming, space consuming......oh yeah.....EXPENSIVE...etc. Yet it is also fun, enjoyable, exciting, and rewarding. I have yet to get my first hatchling but i have 6 eggs cooking at a now....stable....temp in my reptipro that i hope to have hatch in a month or so. My geckos are now healthy and breeding and I really like the setup i have. I have learned to learn from my mistakes and takethings slowly. Not everyone will have the same issues i have and not everyone will expand like i did. But just be cautious. My most important lesson.....Whatever you think the startup cost will be.....tack on $1,000.00. Yeah my total is about 1.3K. Again, this is not to discourage anyone from starting to breed geckos, i enjoy it and would not take back any of this. Just understand that there will be many issues and it will most likely be full of problems. On that note....good luck!

***If you are going to breed for the money.......i don't know what to tell you....good luck with that...

Thats just my story. Anyone else care to share theirs?

 

[jorgab1998]

Mmmmm you didnt have to buy all that tanks you can house them easy in a tub, with heat tape, Some home made hides and everything but anyway ive seem its not easy lol

 

[ghiigh33]

Yeah, that was part of it, i should have researched more about multiple reptile management, not just the science behind breeding them. I could have gone cheaper with the tubs, but i was more comfortable with tanks because thats what i keep my non breeders in. Just trying to show for people who are looking to breed all of the possible issues.

 

[jorgab1998]

Im Starting to look up breeding leopard geckos all the way ^_^ ima do like 2 year research and then breed if i want to lol if not il wait more and breed

 

[ghiigh33]

Thats a good outlook. 2 years of research isn't really necessary I feel. The 6-8 months i did was plenty i think, i just wasted all of my time researching how to get the geckos to breed and hatching eggs and all of the stuff that comes after a proper set up. My story was told just because i want people to understand my bad mistakes and not underestimate it. I think you should breed if you want to and you are ready, its really cool.

 

[ghiigh33]

Mmmmm you didnt have to buy all that tanks you can house them easy in a tub, with heat tape, Some home made hides and everything but anyway ive seem its not easy lol

Yeah, tubs might have been a better idea, but i like my tank setup because it is a great way to monitor and view them. But the tanks aren't where the money went necessarily. It only cost about 35 bucks for anoter tank setup. I have homemade hides, paper towel substrate, a 15 dollar 10 gal tank and a 16 dollar heater. The real money went from me choosing to buy nice breeders. But its worth it theyre really cool.

 

[acpart]

Good luck on the breeding. You're right, it's really fun and exciting, but not a moneymaker. Luckily, I still have my job (and twins starting college in 2 months . . . oh well).

Aliza

 

[Dimidiata]

Paragraphs USE THEM PLEASE 0.0. That is REALLY hard to read.

 

[Russellm0704]

Unless you are just breeding one or two females, I would say it would be extremely difficult to breed using only tanks. You will at least need a hatchling rack for the babies. And then a rack that holds bigger tubs for when they become juveniles. I have spent a lot of money on racks because I decided that i will always house all of my adults individually in their own 28/32 quart tub. I have two of those racks (1 holds 26 the other holds 10). Then i needed to build at least 2 hatchling racks. My hatchling racks hold 6 quart tubs(i built 2 that hold 20 each). Then I thought about what would happen when they get bigger and i ended up building a 12 quart rack. This is only my first year breeding and I already have 21 babies with 15 more fertile eggs in the incubator and 3 females that are still laying. That may seem like a lot but all those babies are between 5 or 6 females. Yes it is expensive and it does drain a lot of money. Feeding all those babies is expensive and my females love to chow down after laying. But I am fortunate enough to have a job and have enough hours to support my hobby. I never intend to make money. I just LOVE to do it. IMO the the biggest drain is not the financial one. It is the amount of time it takes up. When you come home late at night tired from work, you can't just go to bed. You gotta go spend at least half an hour taking care of your animals. And this is coming from a first year breeder who is luckily having a successful year. I am just saying to ask yourself if you have that kind of time and that kind of will to handle all of these potential responsibilities. Unless you have a PASSION to make this your time-consuming hobby, then I really would just enjoy your small collection of reptiles and not worry about breeding.

Just some opinions from a first year breeder

 

[ghiigh33]

Russell, I think this was taken the wrong way. I love Leo breeding and i'm hrilled I am able to do it. I'm only 16 so I have no house or family to pay for and I have a job so I have money to care for my animals I think you may have interpreted my post as if I was complaining about Leo breeding. I love it and think its worth every penny. Just trying to share my mistakes as a first timer. And about the rack system, my parents only would allow tanks because they thought the rack would be too big. Wrong. And btw congrats on a fantastic first season that's amazing. And sorry about the no paragraphs I rushed through it I was on a time constraint.

 

[katie_]

I think whoever wrote that could have saved a lot of time and money if they have done more research.
They were common, rookie mistakes.

 

[Dimidiata]

Nothing wrong with making rookie mistakes and sharing your experiences. So long as you have grown or learned from it.

 

[katie_]

Nothing wrong with making rookie mistakes and sharing your experiences. So long as you have grown or learned from it.

You're right

 

[Russellm0704]

Russell, I think this was taken the wrong way. I love Leo breeding and i'm hrilled I am able to do it. I'm only 16 so I have no house or family to pay for and I have a job so I have money to care for my animals I think you may have interpreted my post as if I was complaining about Leo breeding. I love it and think its worth every penny. Just trying to share my mistakes as a first timer. And about the rack system, my parents only would allow tanks because they thought the rack would be too big. Wrong. And btw congrats on a fantastic first season that's amazing. And sorry about the no paragraphs I rushed through it I was on a time constraint.

No worries dude. This was in no way directed towards you. This was directed towards anyone who is considering breeding. I should have added that i was in no way trying to discourage anyone, I was trying to inform them. I personally knew the financial part would be tough but doable. But i had no clue the amount of effort and time it required. I have been able to adjust and deal with it properly. I was just trying to give some specific insight of a first time breeder.

 

[Russellm0704]

I think whoever wrote that could have saved a lot of time and money if they have done more research.
They were common, rookie mistakes.

As you are right about the research, at least the OP admitted his faults and hopefully his post will prevent others from making the same mistakes. Yes they were rookie mistakes, but he is a rookie. Every breeder was a rookie at some point. I'm a rookie. I luckily just had lots of people tell me to do months and months of research before trying it. And as a result I'm having a great first year.

 

[acpart]

Racks/tanks: I agree that racks take up less space and I do have a 16 tub (6qt) hatchling rack that I use mostly for Coleonyx and fat tail geckos since they eat small crickets. For people who need to or prefer to use tanks, that's also very do-able. I generally breed about 8 female leos and in an average year have 4-6t of them actually produce anything. I have shelf units which can contain up to five front-opening 36" long glass tanks. Each is divided with plexiglass into 3 sections and each can hold a pair of hatchlings. I have a few other tanks that are set up to house 4-5 young juveniles. I think racks are fine, but I prefer to be able to see my guys.

Aliza

 

[OnlineGeckos]

I agree with Russell above that time is the biggest investment in this hobby for a breeder. Money is big, but you have to expect to spend some money in a hobby no matter what the hobby is. But the extra time necessary to take care of the geckos, and how it increases as you get more hatchlings, that's really the harder things to adjust in my opinion.

As a small scale breeder just got done with my first year of breeding, I've made many many newbie mistakes. I think it's easier said than done to tell someone to research research research. There are things that books can't teach you, and these are things you learn as you go.

For me personally, one of the biggest mistakes I've made was to not buy a backup incubator. I purchased 2 MR-148 Pro's based on good feedback and recommendations from forum members. The idea was to run one for male incubation, the other female. Well the male incubator died one day, just a month after it's out of warranty (you only get 30 day warranty on these anyway), and I lost roughly 10-15 eggs that I was REALLY looking forward to this season. That sucked really bad. And since male was incubating at 89-90 degrees, I couldn't just take them out and put them into the female incubator at 81 degrees.

So the lesson I've learned is to always have a backup, because you never know when one may die. Secondly, don't go cheap. Losing eggs could mean a whole season gone depending on how many eggs you have in a particular incubator. So I went and bought Nature Spirit's and have been loving it ever since. Yes it's more expensive, but if you think about it, it cost 3 of the mini fridge incubators. You are expected to have a mini fridge die on you sometime in your breeding lifetime so you might as well just buy something that's larger, quieter, and much more reliable. I would've bought 3 mini's had I gone out and bought another mini fridge style incubator.

Something like what I mentioned isn't anything you can research about. I bought those incubators based on good feedback from other breeders. But hey, when it rains it pours. It's something you learn as you go along, and I think it's common for most people to make mistakes during their first couple of years.

One common mistake new breeders make is to look at large scale breeders and get mesmerized by how much they sell their geckos for. So they go out and buy a male + 2-3 females thinking they could just make their money back within the first year. Unfortunately for a new breeder, you won't be able to sell the same geckos for even half of the price these large scale breeders are charging for. Secondly people aren't accounting for infertility when it comes to many first time virgin females, or that they may have a female that just won't mate or get along, or that you end up with a male that can't get it done (I have one in my collection). Your geckos could also fall ill, one bad batch of feeders with parasites, and you've got a huge vet bill or death in your collection. All these things, along with possible mistakes here and there, incubator dying, heat tape malfunctioning, etc.. all add up to the cost. You should not expect to make your money back during your first year, or ever at all.

New breeders come and go, often they stop because they either can't afford to keep going due to a continuous loss in operation, or they stop because they just don't have the time to take care of all these geckos. Believe me when I say it's a HUGE difference going from having a couple tanks of 3-4 geckos to take care of, versus having 30-50 geckos to take care of. Money you can always make more of, but there's only so many hours a day.

 

[ghiigh33]

When i had mentioned money at the end, I didn't mean that i was attempting to make back what i put into this project. I don't think you interpreted it that way but i just want to be sure. I was just saying that so people who were going to try breeding for money would rethink it. I actually don't even see how thats possible, much less the first year. How has your first season gone onlinegeckos? Any eggs? Hatchlings?

 

[OnlineGeckos]

When i had mentioned money at the end, I didn't mean that i was attempting to make back what i put into this project. I don't think you interpreted it that way but i just want to be sure. I was just saying that so people who were going to try breeding for money would rethink it. I actually don't even see how thats possible, much less the first year. How has your first season gone onlinegeckos? Any eggs? Hatchlings?

Yeah that was a general comment, I didn't direct it at you. And yes in total we hatched out 15 beautiful geckos, 1/3 of it will be kept as holdbacks for next year's breeding. Some projects didn't pan out, but some went surprisingly well. That's another thing I can say about breeding...it's quite unpredictable

I had a lot of fun though, despite the ups and downs. That was key for me, I don't expect to make money breeding. What money I make will be put back into upgrading equipment or buying more geckos & feeders anyway.