Mack Snows the next BB?

[LeosForLess]

I paid about 200 for my mack het albino male back in october. 17 grams, its been what, 4-5 months now? I knew that i would be sellling the mack albino leos for less (pun intended as a joke) than what i paid for my mack het albino. But cmon, nearly being cut by 1/5 since october? Thats outrageous

 

[ExcessiveHerps]

Its only $40 dollars less than you sold a Mack Snow Albino for. :main_huh:

Wasnt that one nearly ready to breed?

Could be the reason we are seeing them so cheap right now.

What can I say I'm still surprised. I haven't seen too many of these guys listed and non seem to stop posting same animals quick. I know I got no offered for weeks non at all till I posted for $135, I've decided to let go of leo breeding and he was the last for sale so I didn't really mind going that low. Its just a shame and a amazement to me how some of there guys drop so quick. And to think that Alex Huw is selling them for my guess would be $500 wholesale when he has as already stated was one of the guys with the higher prices in the past.
X

 

[Kotsay1414]

I'm not surprised to see the price drop. Even though the drop was dramatic. It all comes down to how much one is willing to pay for the specific morph... supply and demand at it's finest.

 

[KelliH]

It happens with all the morphs, Guys. All of them. The key is to make your morphs more desirable and cooler than anyone elses ie. selective breeding for prettier or at least different looking albino snows, Raptors, Enigmas, and etc. Those with some vision and those always thinking of the future breeding seasons (as opposed to current) are the ones with real talent and staying power in the business.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Kelli I don't think you could have said it any better.
Sometimes I feel like I'm a year or two behind some breeders with our projects, but then sometimes I think, I never know what's going to hatch out with them, so I just hold my breath everytime it's near to egg hatching.

 

[eyelids]

This is why I'm such a proponent of selective line breeding. I'm pretty sure a giant jungle mack snow albino will fetch a decent price for years to come, especially really white ones...although that's not really line breeding (more recessive/co-dom...and a little selective breeding). But with line-breeding (or poly genetic) traits like Brian mentioned above with the SHTCBs, those who put the most work (and $) into a project can actually raise their prices from year to year if they produce something fairly unique. Urban Gecko, Albey, Dan L., Kelli and others are able to produce such cutting edge SHTCBs that they are selling for $500 - $1000 and more. Line breding vs. supply and demand is an interesting concept in the leo community. I know reputation and marketing have a bit to do with it...but, insanely colored/patterned geckos are hard to deny. Now, recessive, dominant, co-dominant triats...that's a different story.

Yep! I pretty much said the same thing last year when the first BIG price drop happened. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Albey]

There are quite a few posts here on this forum that put Ron Tremper down for various inaccuracies in the labeling of his geckos among other things. One thing he cannot be accused of is trashing one of his projects before those that have invested in it have had a chance to recoup their initial investment. He could easily flood the market with any one of his morphs but chooses to release them slowly to keep interest high. What has happened with the Mack’s is just another case of a large breeder not giving a damn about anyone except himself or herself. There is no way a project that is only a couple of year old should have Albino Snow’s priced at $90.00. What happened to all of the talk about keeping certain people out of the project to keep prices and interest high (that was a bunch of crap as far as I’m concerned), and wanting to control the market? This hurts everyone that invested in these animals. For the people that got in early like myself it hurts the chances I have of selling the stock I still have and for my customers that invested with me it kills their chance of making the money back quickly. It stinks all the way around as far as I am concerned.

It happens with all the morphs, Guys. All of them. The key is to make your morphs more desirable and cooler than anyone elses ie. selective breeding for prettier or at least different looking albino snows, Raptors, Enigmas, and etc. Those with some vision and those always thinking of the future breeding seasons (as opposed to current) are the ones with real talent and staying power in the business.

Kelli I agree with what you say but it still doesn’t address the fact that it is way too early for the prices to be this low. Even with thinking ahead no one could even have the Geckos that they would need to produce more interesting crosses. You still need Albino Snow’s to mix in with other projects at the very least and that is not to mention how valuable an Albino Super Snow should be. This project should have had another couple of years for prices to be this low. Think about it, if Ben is selling them for $90.00 that means he is paying $45.00 a piece for them. By the way, I am not blaming Ben for this. He is just turning over Geckos; he is not the one that produced them.

It really makes me wonder what is going to happen with the Enigma’s. Once again it is a project that is held by a large breeder known for producing tons of animals. People can say what they will and take shots at Ron all they want but at least he is responsible enough to keep a project from going in the toilet in less than two years. The whole thing sucks.

 

[eyelids]

Good post... I think Kelli is handling the Enigmas very well and I'm not worried about them one bit. Sure she sold a bunch, but they were just ones that Marked dumped on her and would've been sold regardlessly.

EDIT: Oops... You probably were talking about Mark... Well hopefully he doesn't let males out until next year...

 

[giantkeeper]

It happens with all the morphs, Guys. All of them. The key is to make your morphs more desirable and cooler than anyone elses ie. selective breeding for prettier or at least different looking albino snows, Raptors, Enigmas, and etc. Those with some vision and those always thinking of the future breeding seasons (as opposed to current) are the ones with real talent and staying power in the business.

I have typed a response 10 times in this post and changed my mind. You nailed it Kelli!

Albey, you have some great points as well.

 

[Albey]

Good post... I think Kelli is handling the Enigmas very well and I'm not worried about them one bit. Sure she sold a bunch, but they were just ones that Marked dumped on her and would've been sold regardlessly.

EDIT: Oops... You probably were talking about Mark... Well hopefully he doesn't let males out until next year...

I am not worried about Kelli; Kelli is one of the good guy’s. LOL Like you said in your edit, I worry about the Bell’s. Unless Kelli has every Enigma the Bell’s ever produced they have the ability to flood the market in a year. Look how many Blazing Blizzards they produced.

 

[giantkeeper]

I am not worried about Kelli; Kelli is one of the good guy’s. LOL Like you said in your edit, I worry about the Bell’s. Unless Kelli has every Enigma the Bell’s ever produced they have the ability to flood the market in a year. Look how many Blazing Blizzards they produced.

Hopefully that won't be the case, if it is I'll have to save that type of purchase for something else :main_rolleyes:

 

[eyelids]

I am not worried about Kelli; Kelli is one of the good guy’s. LOL Like you said in your edit, I worry about the Bell’s. Unless Kelli has every Enigma the Bell’s ever produced they have the ability to flood the market in a year. Look how many Blazing Blizzards they produced.

I think if they only sell females and keep the price above $1000 this year it shouldn't be too bad. If they sell even just 10 males though, the market is doomed...

 

[Franks_Geckos]

The reptile "industry" isn't immune from basic economics. As supply goes up, price goes down. Anyone expecting a different outcome is in for disappointment.

EXACTLY! Like I said earlier..... I think the guy selling them for $90 IS MAKING A SMART DECISION. Someone will pay 90 dollars for a hatchling and get 2 or 3 for the price of one adult, especially if that is all they can afford. If they are willing to wait a year to breed them, it benefits them and the seller.

Just as Kelli (who knows a thing or two about selling reptiles) mentioned, it (the big price drop) happens with ALL OF THE MORPHS.

WHEN it happens seems to be the only variable, but it is INEVITABLE.

People who get attached to the notion that you are going to buy two homozygous examples of a morph, and produce hatchlings of these morphs that already exist and then sell the hatchlings for close to what you paid for the breeders (the previous season) are deluding themselves. The value drops quickly nowadays, especially as more and more people get involved in breeding. Quality specimens will always be worth more and sell for more, but as many people have already stated in other threads, Breeding Reptiles is not a get rich quick business.

People who get very angry about price drops and the drastic nature of them, are probably just a bit upset because they a forced into lowering their own prices or will sell less of that morph for what they would like to sell it for.

Personally, the enjoyment of the hobby should always come first and people who see dollar signs before the ethical treatment of the animals are misguided. That being said, people who ASSUME that because someone decides to and can sell their geckos for less than them or others can't possibly be providing adequate conditions for their geckos or are outright selling sick animals are IMHO equally misguided. Unless someone has had a bad experience buying a sick animal from a particular breeder or visited their facilities and seen inadequate care being given to the animals it is presumptuous to think that someone can't take care of the animals just because they attempt to sell them for less.

 

[Franks_Geckos]

I also have to agree with Albey that it stinks all the way around, however, I maintain that you can't fault Ben for selling them for what he can afford to sell them for..... If I recall correctly , back when the Macks first came out, some people had been accused of back-dooring Alex to get their hands on Macks he produced and Alex got real bent out of shape when he found out. It was all over Fauna at the time. His attempt to control the market with the select people he sold to was jeopardized. If you look at KS now, you can see how low his prices are on hatchlings. I am sure he wouldn't be selling them so low if he wasn't swimming in them.

 

[Gazz]

I think the trick now it to make mack snow mean snow WHITE or minimum of very pale cream Sticking with these color shades will give you a whiter better looking mack snows then people would be happer paying a higher price well i now i would if i had to pay more for a way whiter mack than one of the more brighter yellower ones i would.Deffantly one of Albery's mack X line sooooooooo white just stunning .

 

[bro paul]

I think if they only sell females and keep the price above $1000 this year it shouldn't be too bad. If they sell even just 10 males though, the market is doomed...

No doubt the Enigmas will follow the same market trend of other morphs before it. Hopefully it won't be too drastic. :main_huh: One thing that gets me excited, though, is the variety I've seen within the relatively few Enigmas we've seen pictured. Some have bright orange markings, some are highly speckled, some are all white with just a spot or two. I know I'm not the only one that sees the potential of selective-breeding projects all over the map w/ the Enigmas. As stated earlier, creativity...and lot's of thought about future breeding seasons should always lead to something new and different. It's definitely what keeps me so interested.

On a personal note, I finally chose to invest in the Enigmas ONLY when I was convinced that I loved their look enough to not worry too much about what the market does. I can be happy just looking at them...for the most part! (and maybe sell one or two )

Sorry, this thread was about Macks wasn't it.

 

[Gregg M]

Alot of you are worried that a certain morph is being sold so cheap... To me, that is more rediculous than the price drop itself...

When I buy into a morph, I buy an individual animal because of its looks, not the name it goes by... Lets face it, not every animal within a morph is created equally... You can buy a super hypo tang or you can buy a SUPER HYPO TANG!!!

Sure, Enigmas will go down in price, but when you produce one that looks like no other, thats where the market can be "reborn"...

I could have got a breeding sized Enigma and had eggs by now and could have a bunch of $1500 babies by the end of the season, but I chose to go with a younger one with the qualities I was looking for for a particular look I am going for...

I would rather "create" something crazy than to worry if I will be able to get top dollar if I started a bit behind everyone else...

So my point is, dont get all upset when someone lowers a price and resets the market value... Instead of getting your panties in a bunch because you are not gonna get the price you want to get, you should refine and improve on the existing morph...

If your animals are stunning, you will get top dollar or close to it... If you are just selling a morph name, you will have to deal with market value drops... Thats just the way it goes...

Another thing, just because someone is selling a usually high priced morph for cheaper than usual, it does not mean it is not a quality animal...

Even if it was not a quality animal, it does not matter much to most buyers in the reptile hobby (anyone who has sold a reptile should know this)... They see a low price on a high end morph and most will jump on it...

People buy SHTCTs from petco and other places of the like because they are 20 bucks... What they dont know or care about is they most likely just bought a case of crypto wrapped in a pretty tangerine package...

 

[Brian O]

I need to apologize. I got my facts wrong yesterday. When I talked to Ben Seigel yesterday I would have sworn he said Alex Hue. After a call back I realize he said John Mack. So Alex Hue was not involved at all.

 

[Gazz]

I need to apologize. I got my facts wrong yesterday. When I talked to Ben Seigel yesterday I would have sworn he said Alex Hue. After a call back I realize he said John Mack. So Alex Hue was not involved at all.

Dosen't really matter they still came from a good breeder i beleave that it was John mack it's all in the name :main_thumbsup: that bred the first ever mack snow ? am i wrong :main_huh: .

 

[Albey]

I need to apologize. I got my facts wrong yesterday. When I talked to Ben Seigel yesterday I would have sworn he said Alex Hue. After a call back I realize he said John Mack. So Alex Hue was not involved at all.

I never thought it was Alex Hue that produced them even if he had sold them to Ben. Alex is not one of the big breeders; he is more of a broker or middleman. John is the only one that could produce the numbers since he has had the project for so much longer.