Morph pop-up question

[Northstar Herp]

I've been wondering something for a while, and maybe you sage old breeders can gimme an answer.

A thread was started today about producing an enigma from normals, and as we know now, you just can't do that. You have to have an enigma parent. Or at least that's what we're told...

On page 170 of RT's book, The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos, he shows a picture of "Bubba" the original male that gave rise to all the world's Trempers.

So here's my question/s:

One day, I think in the Bell colony, there just popped up an Enigma. How did that happen if you must have an enigma parent? Sure, maybe I must have one, but at some point, there just wasn't one. And since there is no het. enigma, how's that possible???

How can ONE gecko give rise to all the world's Trempers? I guess they could have bred the babies to each other, but it would have to be a total accident, right? And then, how would they be able to trace it back to that one male?

But the biggest question is about the Enigma...

 

[robin]

I've been wondering something for a while, and maybe you sage old breeders can gimme an answer.

A thread was started today about producing an enigma from normals, and as we know now, you just can't do that. You have to have an enigma parent. Or at least that's what we're told...

On page 170 of RT's book, The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos, he shows a picture of "Bubba" the original male that gave rise to all the world's Trempers.

So here's my question/s:

One day, I think in the Bell colony, there just popped up an Enigma. How did that happen if you must have an enigma parent? Sure, maybe I must have one, but at some point, there just wasn't one. And since there is no het. enigma, how's that possible???

How can ONE gecko give rise to all the world's Trempers? I guess they could have bred the babies to each other, but it would have to be a total accident, right? And then, how would they be able to trace it back to that one male?

But the biggest question is about the Enigma...

although it is unknown. i am certain it is a result of inbreeding way too many generations and at some point yes one popped out as an "inferior" mutation of the bell albino animals, then maybe two and voila here we have enigmas.

most color (eye and skin) mutations in a scientific manner are considered "inferior" to the "normal". so things like albinism, hypermelanism, leucism, even eye traits like the eclipses were at one time an "inferior" or weak gene that just randomly popped out of a population of animals, whether it was a wild population of captive bred one.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Bubba(or the first Enigma) would have been a random "mutation". The very first of it`s kind, no hets involved. It is something that happens every so often naturally. There is no way to predict it, so there is no way to "make a new morph".

So I`de guess Ron is saying he has the very first Tremper Albino ever produced randomly. So he would have made hets from it, and there you go. He can say that the animal is the "founder" of the line.

 

[Northstar Herp]

Bubba(or the first Enigma) would have been a random "mutation". The very first of it`s kind, no hets involved. It is something that happens every so often naturally. There is no way to predict it, so there is no way to "make a new morph".

So I`de guess Ron is saying he has the very first Tremper Albino ever produced randomly. So he would have made hets from it, and there you go. He can say that the animal is the "founder" of the line.

"Bubba" is, according to the tagline, a perfect example of what leos look in the wild of Pakistan, but is the gene carrier for all the trempers in the world.

Again, my question, how can only Bubba be the gene carrier? It takes two to tango... unless accidental hets were created and then traced back after the trempers were produced???

So Robin, you would suggest somehow that Enigmas are connected with the Bell albinos? I know they surfaced in that colony, but isn't it a different gene altogether? I do understand what you're saying, though I still have questions...

 

[robin]

So Robin, you would suggest somehow that Enigmas are connected with the Bell albinos? I know they surfaced in that colony, but isn't it a different gene altogether? I do understand what you're saying, though I still have questions...

yes.

it is a different gene altogether. that's why it is an enigma but like the beginnings of any other morph it popped out as a random gene mutation (regardless of how its genetics work. being dominant etc.). to be honest i still have questions about it too as well as many others. i do not know if anyone will be able to actually be able to answer them correctly.

 

[Gregg M]

Again, my question, how can only Bubba be the gene carrier? It takes two to tango...

Bubba might have been the only Tremper albino gene carrier in captivity... There could very well have been other Tremper albino gene carriers in the wild however... It all depends... The gene could have either started with Bubba, or it could have been passed down to Bubba... There is no real way to tell...

 

[Wandering Paddle]

It is my understanding that Tremper did not discover tremper albinism. He came in contact with a guy that had produced albinos by inbreeding his geckos. Again, this is a random mutation that takes place in the gametes of the P generation of any new genetic morph. The gametes are the sex cells. Tremper bought the geckos and attempted to breed them. The female was sick and some others died or something, but basically bubba was 66% het and got proved out. All of the geckos involved were wild caught and look nothing like our "normals". normal is a nice word for mutt.

Genetic mutations happen all of the time. For albinism somewhere on some gene an allele for melanin got "messed up" and no longer codes for the protein that makes melanin show up in the body. The mutation that caused the enigma trait is a little different, as it codes for more than one thing... thus the Syndrome (which is a nice way to say enigmas are messed up), along with the cool colors, But it was still just a random mutation that created a new allele.

In males the body is always making gametes after puberty and that gives nature a high chance to make a mistake when coding for the DNA of an animal, the same goes for females, but eggs arent produced for their whole lives... this is true in leopard geckos and humans.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

My fault I thought we were talking about an Albino. I am not familiar w/ Bubba.

Either way, it was an Albino or het Albino(does not matter), the answer is pretty much the same. It was the first(or only remaining het). It only takes one to make hets, then they would be bred back, or to eachother.

 

[Northstar Herp]

It is my understanding that Tremper did not discover tremper albinism. He came in contact with a guy that had produced albinos by inbreeding his geckos. Again, this is a random mutation that takes place in the gametes of the P generation of any new genetic morph. The gametes are the sex cells. Tremper bought the geckos and attempted to breed them. The female was sick and some others died or something, but basically bubba was 66% het and got proved out. All of the geckos involved were wild caught and look nothing like our "normals". normal is a nice word for mutt.

Genetic mutations happen all of the time. For albinism somewhere on some gene an allele for melanin got "messed up" and no longer codes for the protein that makes melanin show up in the body. The mutation that caused the enigma trait is a little different, as it codes for more than one thing... thus the Syndrome (which is a nice way to say enigmas are messed up), along with the cool colors, But it was still just a random mutation that created a new allele.

In males the body is always making gametes after puberty and that gives nature a high chance to make a mistake when coding for the DNA of an animal, the same goes for females, but eggs arent produced for their whole lives... this is true in leopard geckos and humans.

Now that was as helpful as anything I've heard on genetics and where stuff comes from. I've just been under the impression that the codes for all the morphs have been there all along, we just had to accidentally combine the right geckos without knowing it. I'm really uninformed, but that's what most of the talk I've heard about genetics sounds like to me.

Thanks, Paddle.

 

[herpencounter]

I've been wondering something for a while, and maybe you sage old breeders can gimme an answer.

A thread was started today about producing an enigma from normals, and as we know now, you just can't do that. You have to have an enigma parent. Or at least that's what we're told...

On page 170 of RT's book, The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos, he shows a picture of "Bubba" the original male that gave rise to all the world's Trempers.

So here's my question/s:

One day, I think in the Bell colony, there just popped up an Enigma. How did that happen if you must have an enigma parent? Sure, maybe I must have one, but at some point, there just wasn't one. And since there is no het. enigma, how's that possible???

How can ONE gecko give rise to all the world's Trempers? I guess they could have bred the babies to each other, but it would have to be a total accident, right? And then, how would they be able to trace it back to that one male?

But the biggest question is about the Enigma...

How..? Mutations. The end.

 

[herpencounter]

Genetic mutations happen all of the time. For albinism somewhere on some gene an allele for melanin got "messed up" and no longer codes for the protein that makes melanin show up in the body. The mutation that caused the enigma trait is a little different, as it codes for more than one thing... thus the Syndrome (which is a nice way to say enigmas are messed up), along with the cool colors, But it was still just a random mutation that created a new allele.

It is not a new allele it is the same allele coded differently. Just saying lol.

 

[herpencounter]

It is not a new allele it is the same allele coded differently. Just saying lol.

My mistake I was thinking of something else lol.

But I will say one thing...

I believe Tremper albinos are T+. So Tremper albinos still make tyrosinase but, the pigment cells are unable to produce melanin (eumelanin specifically (brown/black)). And proteins do not make melanin. Melanin is formed from the amino acid Tyrosine. Also a protein is made of several amino acids chained together so it is not a portein either.

 

[nevinm]

My mistake I was thinking of something else lol.

But I will say one thing...

I believe Tremper albinos are T+. So Tremper albinos still make tyrosinase but, the pigment cells are unable to produce melanin (eumelanin specifically (brown/black)). And proteins do not make melanin. Melanin is formed from the amino acid Tyrosine. Also a protein is made of several amino acids chained together so it is not a portein either.

this is correct. including the other 2 strains. they are all T+

 

[herpencounter]

this is correct. including the other 2 strains. they are all T+

Alright thanks. I would also like to add. This is my OPINION but, from the looks of it, bell albinos, I would think, do produce a little bit of melanin. If you look at a Tremper or a rainwater you can see that they produce NO brown pigment but, bell albinos do. Any opinions or studies on this?

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

They all produce some I would say, RW`s do not show much though. There are some very dark Tremps. Trempers are effected by cool ambient temps, and even the cooler incubation temps. Hence the "Tremper method" of incubating lighter females.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

My mistake I was thinking of something else lol.

But I will say one thing...

I believe Tremper albinos are T+. So Tremper albinos still make tyrosinase but, the pigment cells are unable to produce melanin (eumelanin specifically (brown/black)). And proteins do not make melanin. Melanin is formed from the amino acid Tyrosine. Also a protein is made of several amino acids chained together so it is not a portein either.

DNA codes for proteins, even if the protein it codes for doesnt actually produce the melanin. just saying lol.

And thanks for figuring out that "the same allele just coded differently" is a different allele.

 

[robin]

Alright thanks. I would also like to add. This is my OPINION but, from the looks of it, bell albinos, I would think, do produce a little bit of melanin. If you look at a Tremper or a rainwater you can see that they produce NO brown pigment but, bell albinos do. Any opinions or studies on this?

josiah, tremper albinos used to be just as dark as bells can be if not darker. hence the term "dookie browns"