Most Humane Culling Procedure?

[notacoshells]

May seem a little more savage but smaller animals we cinder block crush them. One fail flat surface to surface straight down on each other, It lasts 1 second and over. We are out in the country so some of you cant just go out on your balcony or driveway and do it. My son always "talks" to them before we take them and he understands and knows the world of genetics seeing how we work with other barnyard animals and afterwards we mix into the compost bin. We also have a pair of Tokay's coming so maybe we can feed them to them now.

wow. when you let go of the cinder blocks how far do the guts go? When i first read this i thought you where kidding.

 

[notacoshells]

I dont see how suffocating is a humane method of culling. Freezing to me sounds much more humane. The aminal gets cold, falls asleep, then dies versus gasping for breath, possibly NOT suffocating, then having to freeze it anyway? too many "what if's" there for me. When we breed our rabbits, if we have to cull, we've used the gassing method, some go peacefully, others scream to high heaven. To me that is an indicator that method is not consistant nor humane, and that the animal is in distress. Usually our preferred method now is either a hammer handle to the base of the head where it joins the spine, an overdose of insulin (since my hubby is type 1 diabetic we have it readily available) which puts them right to sleep then they pass peacefully, or I give them to my friend who has a 12 foot red tailed boa. Honestly I would not feel comfortable gassing a herp who has such a low oxygen requirement that co2 may take a LONG time to pts.

Well think about how your hands feel in the winter when you are out in the snow and they turn red and then think of inhaling co2. if you gas them they will pass out and then die. if you freeze them they will not be dying a painless death because they are cold blooded and will feed the cold more than we do.

 

[Desdemona]

It would be a good experiment I think for someone to use a clear freezer (assuming someone makes one) and watch the animal. If it's in pain you can probably tell. Animals dont' have social reasons to hide pain like humans do. If you could attach electroids to it's head and watch it's brain it would be even better, though to find such equipment small enough for a gecko might be tricky. I don't know if they make them that small, though they might for vets. (do vets read brain waves of animals?) It would not be hard to find the pain centers of the brain if they have not already been located by a lab somewhere. Then you just watch to see if it lights off. You could probably do the experiment in a meat locker where you could bundle up against the cold.

For those who use Bearded Dragons, what size dragon for hatchlings? I do have a dragon but she is a bit on the smaller size and I wouldn't want to impact her if I needed to do this. I would prefer the food method.

For those who are under the assumption that nature is kind and always kills nice.. spend some time with National Geographic. Some animals are very vicious, posion is a horrible way to die and lots of species use it. Humans are at times the most humane because they give a sh*t... nature does not. Many animals will also play with their food and slowly kill it. Many preditor moms do this to teach their young how to kill. Watch a pride of lions take down a elephant, it sometimes lasts 30 mins to an hour. Alegators/Crocs drown their prey, etc. I can go on (I have watched a lot of nature).

 

[Pinky81]

I have a lot of opinions on the subject myself, mostly dealing with that pain is and what pain means. I am sure you and a few others would get it, but most pet owners would find my rather clinical analysis distasteful.

I think your right, being a nurse myself I have a mind that is more scientifically driven, so nothing in this thread has been offensive to me...well maybe the blender thing! :main_no:

I would think the CO2 method would be the most painless, when it comes to Co2 exposure there is a certain amount of feeling unable to breathe, but most process thru CO2 exposure would be becoming more and more sleepy and incoherent...then to put the animal in the freezer would finsh off the job. At this point I would think the animal after spending a period in CO2 would be so incoherent that it really wouldn't feel much as the body processes that rely on o2 to work properly are now slowed. So even if the animal is moving a little while moving it to the freezer i would think its soooo out of it to really feel much.

I actually appreciate your explaintions Semus as you seem to have a good grasp on physiology of animal anatomy. Since I have gotten into breeding the way I have I am faced with having to prepare myself for actually culling a animal and really do want what is best during this process. Seeing as I have picked animals from excellent genetics from some of the best on this site I am hoping I don't have to do this...but there is always a chance and I want to be prepared with a plan. To be truthful I don't think less of anyone who culls by crushing or cutting heads off...I just think I know myself well enough that I don't think I will beable to do this myself.

To me CO2 then freezer seems like the way to go. But here is my question...how do you make a CO2 chamber?

And thank you Semus for the indepth analysis and explanation!

 

[M_surinamensis]

That was a bit of thread necromancy.

To me CO2 then freezer seems like the way to go. But here is my question...how do you make a CO2 chamber?

It's not too tricky.

Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air. It will mix and dilute into the atmosphere given time, but that heavier than air aspect makes it relatively easy to work with.

Basically it consists of a container large enough to hold the animal. One that can be made airtight, although that effect can be found using duct tape if it is not something you will need to use often. Near the top of the container, drill a couple holes to match the width of some tubing or piping. One of these should be short, and covered by a cap. The other should lead to your carbon dioxide. The two most common ways of obtaining carbon dioxide are to buy it directly (it is sold in canisters for paintball propellant and a few other uses) or to make it by submerging dry ice in water.

I find the canisters much easier to use. The dry ice does produce a visible effect so you can measure the mixture in the chamber though. If the mix is introduced too fast, it will cause respiratory distress in many animals. If the mix is too slow or too diffuse, it may not produce the intended effect (ending the animal's life). Unfortunately, because of variations in equipment, these are things that can only be learned through trial and observation.

With reptiles, it's also important to leave them in there for a time after obvious visible signs of respiration and movement have ceased. They have comparatively low oxygen requirements and have been known to revive if lightly dosed or not kept in the chamber long enough.

It's possible I could make Paint diagrams, if it's necessary.

 

[Pinky81]

That was a bit of thread necromancy.



It's not too tricky.

Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air. It will mix and dilute into the atmosphere given time, but that heavier than air aspect makes it relatively easy to work with.

Basically it consists of a container large enough to hold the animal. One that can be made airtight, although that effect can be found using duct tape if it is not something you will need to use often. Near the top of the container, drill a couple holes to match the width of some tubing or piping. One of these should be short, and covered by a cap. The other should lead to your carbon dioxide. The two most common ways of obtaining carbon dioxide are to buy it directly (it is sold in canisters for paintball propellant and a few other uses) or to make it by submerging dry ice in water.

I find the canisters much easier to use. The dry ice does produce a visible effect so you can measure the mixture in the chamber though. If the mix is introduced too fast, it will cause respiratory distress in many animals. If the mix is too slow or too diffuse, it may not produce the intended effect (ending the animal's life). Unfortunately, because of variations in equipment, these are things that can only be learned through trial and observation.

With reptiles, it's also important to leave them in there for a time after obvious visible signs of respiration and movement have ceased. They have comparatively low oxygen requirements and have been known to revive if lightly dosed or not kept in the chamber long enough.

It's possible I could make Paint diagrams, if it's necessary.

So is it possible that if you allow the leo to be in the chamber till it stops moving or basically where you can't see much movement and then just detach the container and put the leo in the freezer to finish the process that this would be much more humane as the gecko is pretty much out of it due to lack of O2 at that point? Seems to me that this is the best way to ensure a pain free or painless as possible peaceful way to cull??

Do you have a link to these CO2 containers for paintballing.

 

[stager]

I may get attacked for this, but if I had unwanted babies and could not find homes the would become food for my green tree python.

 

[JordanAng420]

You shouldn't be attacked for that. This year, I fed 2 hatchlings that I had to euthanize to my Savannah Monitor. (They were severely deformed, not that it's anybody's business, but whatever...)

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I prefer this method to any other...it's done and over with, and my monitor gets an extra meal.

 

[T-ReXx]

You shouldn't be attacked for that. This year, I fed 2 hatchlings that I had to euthanize to my Savannah Monitor. (They were severely deformed, not that it's anybody's business, but whatever...)

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I prefer this method to any other...it's done and over with, and my monitor gets an extra meal.

THE CIRCLE OF LIIIIIIIFFFFFFE! :main_laugh: :main_thumbsup:

In all seriousness, I agree. Feeding a cull to another animal(assuring the cull is not a potential vector of any diseases or parasites) is a perfectly logical method. One that I have practiced many times.

 

[Dimidiata]

Heres how i see it, im not going to spend unesseccary money when the same effect can be achived while still not inflicting any worse pain on the animal. example-fish
When my danios came down with a crippling spine deformity(genetic screwup in my fry) i was told to use the clove oil method to humanely euth. Well clove oil and the amount i needed would be $20, solution, destroy the fishes brain quickly. I basicly used the back end of a cleaver to quickly flatten their heads and disconect them at once, i garuntee it was over before they knew it. (well aside the half second of being pulled from the water). In fish, i dont freeze, to many conflicting reports saying they can feel pain and such, decap,brain scramble(a quick flick to the pavement has been proven to work) and clove are the best(obviously for bigger fish, clove works better). So with reps id probably Co2 and then freeze. Inverts both aquatic and terestrial, quick stomp. Decaping a lizard just sounds too messy. For feeder mice at school i used to break their necks quick.

 

[Digby Rigby]

Feed them off or smash their heads. Gassing is disgusting. Think about it. Look to nature to see how things like this are done. There is no cruelty in nature. look how prey is taken down. Just crush it. No matter how somthing is killed it invariably causes some pain. Nothing is faster than a quick crushing death.

 

[WingedWolfPsion]

I just had to comment here, as I see a lot of folks have a very serious misconception about reptile metabolism.

The most important thing you need to realize is that reptiles do not HIBERNATE. Mammals hibernate. Reptiles brumate. What's the difference? It has to do with the state of consciousness. Mammals fall asleep and their metabolism drops. Reptiles DO NOT FALL ASLEEP. Their metabolism decreases, but they remain conscious and go through normal wake and sleep cycles while cooled. They react to stimuli, albeit very slowly, which is something mammals do not do. (In fact, brumating snakes often develop an evil temperament, since their reaction times are reduced and they feel more vulnerable).

So, if you put a reptile in a refrigerator, its metabolism will drop, and it will become sluggish, but it will still be fully conscious. If you then go on to put it into the freezer? Well, the brain is often the last part of the animal to die, as its blood flow constricts to preserve its internal organs. Imagine being conscious, but unable to move, as your extremities slowly freeze and fill with ice crystals.
For a bit of additional information on what this would be like, put your hand into a bucket of ice, and see how long you want to hold it there. Now pretend you're paralyzed.

No, freezing is not a humane method of euthanasia for reptiles, and it's surprising that there's still a debate over this. It is, in fact, one of the cruelest possible methods.

CO2 is not recommended for reptiles, because it takes forever--it's not fast, and the animal is likely to experience feelings of oxygen deprivation, because, again...it takes FOREVER for it to actually lose consciousness. Reptiles don't readily pass out, the way mammals do. Plus, there's a good chance of it waking up again if you don't do it for a sufficient amount of time (and it could take hours). This is not right, either.

Removing a reptile's head doesn't kill its brain immediately, which makes it altogether likely that it's receiving pain signals from its neck. Severed reptile heads have been recorded reacting consciously to stimuli. This is clearly inhumane. Recommendations to sever the head and then destroy the brain--well, they are backward, wouldn't you say?

There are two methods of euthanasia which are acceptably quick and humane: Instantaneous destruction of the brain (such as by crushing), and lethal injection into the heart AFTER administration of an anaesthetic. In the first instance, the animal cannot feel pain, because pain signals are registered in the brain--a destroyed brain feels nothing, regardless of the amount of damage done. In the second, the animal is rendered unconscious by drugs before the painful injection into the heart kills it.

Reptiles are tough animals to kill, and tough animals to render unconscious.

One of the above methods is very unpleasant, and the other is expensive. This is really just too bad--it's not ABOUT us, it's about what the animal experiences, and that is what we should keep in mind. Don't be cruel for the sake of squeamishness or convenience.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I just had to comment here, as I see a lot of folks have a very serious misconception about reptile metabolism.

The above post, partially quoted for reference, is riddled with factual errors. I explained several of them, much, much earlier in this thread, back in 2010 when it was started.

Many of her above contentions are applicable to most mammals and have no merit in a discussion of reptile physiology. Donna (WingedWolfPsion) is a fairly notorious for rampant anthropomorphism where animals are concerned.

Well... that and selling rocks on e-bay that she claims to have put the souls of deceased Mossad agents into. ... and claiming that she's actually a werewolf. A psychic vampire werewolf with magic powers. The point is, she is quite possibly the least credible source for animal- or any other- information in existence.