New Enigma Thread

[Jenna4Herps]

In light of the discussions that came up in the earlier crossing of albinos thread, I propose a new thread on the discussion of the enigmas. A lot of us are aware that in the F0 population of enigmas, there were some, and I will emphasize "some" neurological difficulties in the enigma morphs. Also, we know that there are bell traits and tremper traits that appears in the enigma genetic makeups.

Here are my questions to all you enigma breeders and subsequent enigma breeders in the future (I myself have an enigma too).

1) Now that several years have gone by, how many have seen some neurological difficulties in their offspring?

2) Has outcrossing strengthened the morph so that the neurological difficulties have almost if not all disappeared?

3) We know that we can produce Bell Enigma's and we also know that we can produce Snow Enigma's, and some Enigma raptors were produced I believe... correct? Since this is the case, how can we as a community say to any extreme that the traits in any particular enigma will not be het for bell or tremper? Is it our duty to prove our offspring out for the bell or tremper traits prior to placing any offspring up for sale or breeding with another morph that may make the genetics even more complicated to discern?

4) How do you feel about breeding an enigma to another albino morph? Are we weakening their traits when they have had neurological disorders in the F0 populations by doing so? Or, are they already strengthened enough through the F1-F4 generations to breed to other possibly weaker traits like an albino? Or do we strive as community to pick the strongest of the morphs, and make the enigma morph even stronger?

Where would you say we are at in regard to breeding the enigma's to other morphs? As a future breeder of enigma myself, and in wishing to do the right thing for the enigma morph itself, I'd be interested to hear other breeder's observations and thoughts with their experience in breeding the enigma morphs and also hear what everyone thinks is ethically right or wrong when breeding an enigma.

Let the thoughts begin .

 

[Sandra]

First, thanks for opening this thread Jenna. This is something that has been going on my mind during these days and I couldn't bring myself to post it.

I'm not an enigma breeder (not at the moment, at least) but I own two.

1) Now that several years have gone by, how many have seen some neurological difficulties in their offspring?

One of the enigmas I own seems to have neurological disorders. Because a picture is worth a thousand words, I've recorded her during a feeding so you can see her walking in circles, losing balance, ignoring the food, etc. She usually doesn't do so badly, I guess she was nervious because of the camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8m_aGbmKvw

She was born on April 12th.

The other enigma's behavior is normal (in fact, he's one of those doggy geckos that goes out to say hello when you come into the room, lol).

He was born on August 8th. But I didn't receive them both until one month ago.

Since this is the case, how can we as a community say to any extreme that the traits in any particular enigma will not be het for bell or tremper? Is it our duty to prove our offspring out for the bell or tremper traits prior to placing any offspring up for sale or breeding with another morph that may make the genetics even more complicated to discern?

Well, that would be desirable, but it's not realistic. If you have an animal that you are sure carries Bell genetics, are you going to cross it to a Tremper to discard Tremper genetics? I don't think it's right to knowingly produce double hets just to prove your animal. What do you do with all those hatchlings after that? Cull them? Keep them all?...

I would only prove out possible hets, that way I have the chance to produce valuable offspring.

I guess the first people that started crossing albino lines with enigmas took the time to do it with care. There's no need to directly cross Bell x Tremper to produce a Tremper enigma from a Bell enigma. Are there any known cases of double hets in enigmas?

And well... I'm afraid I can't give my opinion about the other questions as I have very little experience with enigmas.

As owner of one enigma with a neurological disorder, I would like to know more about the previous cases that have occurred. Which symptoms they have presented, if it worsens or improves with age, etc. Anything would be useful. I know that most enigmas displaying this problems have been culled, but I wouldn't have the courage to sacrifice her, I'm very attached to her already and she is living peacefully. If it was a degenerative disorder I would consider it, though. Needless to say, she's out of any breeding program.

I would also like to know more to warn people of my country. I see more and more enigmas here everyday but I bet most people hasn't even given this a thought, or wouldn't know how to distingish a normal gecko from an insane one. It wouldn't be pleasant to see all the place filled with crazy geckos.

Ps: Biblical-size post, isn't it?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

IMO, culling does not necessarily mean putting the gecko down. It could also mean removing it from any breeding program... although $1500-2500 is a LOT to spend on a 'pet' gecko. The problem lies with never being assured that any Enigma that exhibits apparent neurological issues will not be used for breeding purposes when placed with a new keeper.

With a few exceptions, I honestly feel that the majority of those working with this exciting new morph have been exceptionally ethical and responsible about their breeding programs by not allowing sub-standard Enigmas to go out on the market or allowed to reproduce. But, there will always be those who are more concerned with profit over ethics.

Historically speaking, any time a 'new' morph is introduced there have been issues with the first generation(s), whether it was the Blizzard's nasty disposition, the patternless' and Bell albino's tail kinks, or the Mack Super-snow's failure to thrive and grow. It is my opinion that these undesirable traits are a result of shallow gene pools from irresponsible inbreeding in a effort to capitalize in a new market.

I may be sounding holier-than-thou, but I have not produced a single Murphy patternless with a kinked tail in going on 5 years because I did not breed any gecko that possessed that trait, outcrossed all my lines, and the few offspring that came out that way were placed in single-gecko, pet homes. Yet still, I have no guarantee these were not allowed to breed.

I supposed I could pose a few other questions in order to glean some honest answers... do we know for certain that Enigmas with apparent neurological problems produce offspring with the same trait? What are breeders doing with the few that have this problem, and what are they doing for their customers that were sold these geckos, whether it was knowingly or unknowingly? Just how widespread is this problem?

I suppose time will tell. I believe that with all the outcrossing that is going on with the Enigma, these problems will disappear.

 

[Sandra]

IMO, culling does not necessarily mean putting the gecko down. It could also mean removing it from any breeding program... although $1500-2500 is a LOT to spend on a 'pet' gecko. The problem lies with never being assured that any Enigma that exhibits apparent neurological issues will not be used for breeding purposes when placed with a new keeper.

I don't think adoption is a possibility for enigmas right now. Knowing all the money they are worth, sure, there would be a lot of people willing to "adopt" a faulty enigma. You put them down, keep them or give them to someone you trust with your life. But openly giving them up for adoption, right now, it's like breeding them yourself.

I had a moment of weakness myself, to think about breeding her, when I didn't know this was a common problem between enigmas but I knew she wasn't normal But now that I'm resigned I feel better about all this.

I hope it happens as Marcia says and we can forget about this problem in a few generations.

 

[Jenna4Herps]

First, thanks for opening this thread Jenna. This is something that has been going on my mind during these days and I couldn't bring myself to post it.

You are welcome Sandra . This subject has been on my mind as well, and I too was unsure about posting about this subject. But, I feel it is a very important one that should be discussed. The enigma is a fairly new morph and I believe we should be open and honest about the findings when working with newly developed genetics. So far, the enigmas have turned out absolutely beautiful and I too think the enigma's are gorgeous. We hear about all the positive things of the enigma morph, but have heard very little about the original problems that a few of the enigmas had when first developed. Reporting findings of offspring and working as a community I believe is important in order to make this beautiful morph stronger for the future.

I am so sorry you have a newly purchased enigma with neurological difficulties .

I would only prove out possible hets, that way I have the chance to produce valuable offspring.

Makes sense.

 

[Lottiz]

Is this neurological disorders more common at RE enigmas?? I just wounder if it can be as simple as that they are blind?? I can see the same behavior with my RE enigma, but I have learn her to grab the food when i touch her cheek, so she don't turn around in circles searching for the crickets and mealies anymore.

 

[DAWNoftheLEO]

I have an enigma who seems to only like crickets.. Just kind of ignores the mealies..

Anyone ever hear of any with a parkinsons-type shake? I thought I had heard of it before... *shrugs*

 

[Sandra]

Lottiz, mine is not blind (not completely, at least) because her pupils contract and expand with light changes and she detects movement. She may have bad sight, however, but I'm pretty sure it's not just that. She doesn't walk around in circles only when searching for food. If it was a common practice in blind geckos, I think people would have considered this possibility first when these geckos appeared.

 

[Albey]

I don’t know about any Neurological Disorders with the Enigma’s but all of the ones I saw the last two years at Daytona walked around in circles. Even Kara from NERD (She and Kevin are good friends with the Bell’s), remarked to me when we were talking about them how it was funny how they walked around in circles like that. She compared it to the Spider morph of Ball Python, which do a head spin thing. It is like they are stargazing or something. It in no way affects the Enigma’s eating, how quickly they grow, or how they breed. I look at it as just a funny quirk with them. Now if they are having problems with equilibrium, have no motor control, or have trouble catching their food than I would see a problem. I would not breed one that was doing that. Maybe in the future with more out breeding they will lose the circle walking but personally I could care less. I think it is kind of cool. LOL

 

[supperl]

Well maybe she´s half blind but still I would say she has neurological defects. Normal Geckos would never act like that and I think a Leo can smell his food.
But to say one think, I never was able to feed a wormish feeder by Hand. All my Geckos say not to it^^ but when I take a cricket all are coming to do their work as a Gecko^^

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

This is really the first I have heard of them having problems like that. I know our RE Enigma does not seem to have the best eyesight, and wonder if maybe that is the problem. Or is it something else? When there is light in the room, she does seem very sensitive, and squints alot, so I am pretty sure she is not blind at least.

 

[DAWNoftheLEO]

A little of subject, one of my enigmas he was trying to burrow underneath his papertowel finally he did a full frontflip and got under, lol..

ANother one is growing slower than a SS I had that was growing at same rate.. very slow..

 

[geckoluv2187]

I'm curious, for people who have enigmas with neuro disorders, do your leos circle to only one side? Or both sides? I'm no reptile expert, but at least with mammals, you can rule out certain disorders depending on which direction they're circling in. Could it be an ear problem?

 

[PaulSage]

Awesome thread.

Here are my thoughts.

Recessive traits: I think breeders just need to be honest. We all know that the Enigmas produced by Mark Bell contained some hidden surprises (the Tremper and Bell albino traits). To the best of my knowledge none of them have proven to be het for Rainwater albino. My perspective on this is simply that 1.) Kelli proved relatively early on that the "red eye Enigmas" were Bell Enigmas and several Enigmas proved to be het for Bell albino and 2.) breeders who purchased Enigmas wanted to cross them right away into the most common albino trait (Tremper) in part due to interest and curiosity of outcomes when combined with the RAPTOR traits. I have personally never seen a Rainwater albino of any sort on Mark Bell's tables, and to the best of my knowledge he doesn't work with that strain. Thus, I think the chances of any of the Enigmas on the current market being het for RW are quite remote. Since many of the 'original' Enigmas proved to be het for Bell albino or Tremper albino, I think it would be good practice to prove them out by breeding them to both strains. I can understand why some breeders would not want to though, especially if they're working with females who can only be bred to one male per season. Still, just because one of the 'original' Enigmas proved to be het for Bell does not mean that it isn't also het for Tremper and vice versa.

Back to the honesty part... Like I said, it's common knowledge that we don't know what recessive traits are lurking in any given Enigma. No one can 'hide' that simple fact. I would like to think that integrity will prevail and the responsible breeders will exercise full disclosure on the genetics and potential genetics of the Enigmas being produced and sold.

Neurological abnormalities: Only one of my original Enigmas exhibited the "dizzy" condition, and she didn't develop it until she was almost six months old. I've seen very similar neurological malfunctions in "circus mice" which was determined to be the result of inbreeding. Whether or not out-crossing will reduce or eliminate such motor skill handicaps I can't say. I exchanged the afflicted female for a different one, which I regret in some ways because after realizing how common the problem is, I would have liked to see how it progressed. To the best of my knowledge, none of the Enigmas I've produced thus far exhibit this condition, but since it seems to develop as the gecko matures I suppose it's possible. (I think I would have been informed if it happened though )

Tail deformities: I'm still a little baffled by this one. Of the +/- 25 Enigmas I've hatched so far, I think four of them have an irregular shaped tail tip. Interestingly though, none of the Enigma "siblings" have shown any abnormalities in the tail. I'm not entirely convinced that the "kink" we've seen in the tails is the same as the genetic kink we are familiar with. I've examined the Enigmas that have irregular tails and have noticed three things: 1.) The kinks seem to develop as the gecko grows, and isn't present at hatching like other kinked tails. 2.) The posterior part of the tail past the kink is shaped differently--it almost looks more like an "extension" added to the end of the tail, rather than a kink in the tail tip. 3.) The Enigmas' kinks are flexible and not always apparent, unlike the other kinks which feel "hard" and can't be easily manipulated. I'll see if I can get some pictures to demonstrate what I mean.

I do remember seeing one Enigma (I think it was at a show) that had a tail kink that looked like the classic kink that we're familiar with. I wish I had taken a picture; it did not resemble the kinks I've seen in other Enigmas. So, I'm not saying that all tail kinks seen in the Enigmas are "unique" to just the Enigmas. I guess at this point only time will tell if there's anything substantial behind its occurrence.

I have to go, but I'll come back later. :main_yes:

 

[DAWNoftheLEO]

I wonder if this dizzy condition can cause the parkinsons type shake, like a wobbly head..

 

[SteveB]

Paul,

Thank you for taking the time to provide us such a detailed, honest, and insightful account of your experience with the Enigmas.

That was probably the most signficant and worthwhile post I've read in a long time.

Again, thanks, I truly appreciate it and look forward to the contributions of others with similar levels of firsthand experience with the Enigmas.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK, so we are in the 3rd generation of Enigma morphs now. In the event that some of the geckos with neurological issues were bred, did they produce offspring with the same apparent issue?

 

[yellermelon]

I have nothing usefull to add, But this is a really really good post

 

[Jenna4Herps]

Thank you everyone for the posts and my special thanks to Paul for his detailed findings on his enigma breedings. I am finding this very informative and helpful when considering what to breed to enigmas and what to look for in offspring once they have hatched. To me, I believe this is truly a community effort in strengthening the enigma morph.

Marcia has a great question: Has anyone seen the neurological difficulties in offspring too in subsequent generations? The same? A decline? None at all?

I'd also be interested in the data of if a pairing of one particular morph shows a higher rate of abnormalities than others... i.e. cross with Bell, Tremper, Snow, etc.

 

[dprince]

Wow, this is really great reading.

I have three enigmas; they are all growing like weeds (my male that was hatched 5/21 is already past the 70 gram mark, no kidding.) The enigma het bell male is a little flighty; the other two (tremper enigma het RAPTOR, mack snow enigma het bell) are puppy dogs. They all have no apparent problems with eating or eyesight; I will be watching them for these other behaviors. Thanks again for bringing this to my (and everyone else that was unaware)'s attention.

I was not aware of these issues with the enigmas, but like all important information, it takes time and experience to figure this stuff out. I am very appreciative to those who have shared their information from their experiences, and look forward to sharing mine as I start hatching my first babies of these three.

This is why GF RULES!!! :main_yes: Thanks again for bringing this topic up.