New Enigma Thread

[Sandra]

I'm curious, for people who have enigmas with neuro disorders, do your leos circle to only one side? Or both sides?

I think mine only turns clockwise, but I can't tell for sure, I never payed attention to it but I will from now on. Could you tell us what would it mean at least in mammals?

I'd like to know also the same that Marcia is asking. If the neurological problems pass off to the offspring, it would be bad for those who own these kind of enigmas and intend to breed them but it would also be good, because it means it can be controlled by selective breeding. But if it isn't a genetic trait itself, that would mean that is something enigmas are prone to in general. This changes things a lot.

 

[PSGeckos]

Is this neurological disorders more common at RE enigmas?? .

Sorry but i don't understand what an RE Enigma is?

I've just bought two Enigma's off of Kelli, one Bell Enigma & an Enigma het Bell, they're are both fine, putting on weight and showing no signs of any of the afore mentioned symptoms.

This is very worrying though, and this is the first time i have read about these problems.

So can it effect any Enigma or only if you cross albino traits, as i'm only sticking to the Bell strain.

 

[supperl]

You own an RE Enigma^^ I would say your avatar is one too.
Red Eyed Enigmas are Bell Enigmas. They are called Red Eyed cause their eyes ar so damn redish. And I guess(not realy sure^^) that first ppl thought Enigma is Co-dom and thought the normal Enigmas were the het form and as many Enigmas were suprisingly het Bell ppl got Bell Egnimas aka Red Eyed out of pairing them to Bells or to each other. And so ppl thought the Red Eyed enigma was the supr form.

To the last, that Is what I understood from a bunch of ppl telling the Red Eyed were the super form(dunno exactly where it was^^)

But in the End it´s not true^^

 

[leo mel]

I have a red eye enigma also bought from kelli, i have noticed nothing unusual about him, The only thing i would say is they are very light sensitive and intially he was slow to feed however after watching him i felt that having his mealworms in a brown dish was not helping and so placed a circle of white paper on the bottom once i did this it appeared all of a sudden he looked and saw mealworms straight away and began feeding great.
he doesn't circle and shows no other symptoms that have been mentioned and now eats like a pig, so definatly not blind lol

 

[PaulSage]

Sorry but i don't understand what an RE Enigma is?

I've just bought two Enigma's off of Kelli, one Bell Enigma & an Enigma het Bell, they're are both fine, putting on weight and showing no signs of any of the afore mentioned symptoms.

This is very worrying though, and this is the first time i have read about these problems.

So can it effect any Enigma or only if you cross albino traits, as i'm only sticking to the Bell strain.

Honestly, I am not too worried about it. Until I have reason to believe otherwise, I think that the neurological problems we've seen are the result of inbreeding early on in the Enigmas' existence (when Mark Bell first 'discovered' them). I think that as the Enigmas are outcrossed to various morphs (and consequently, to different bloodlines) they'll only get stronger and the occurrence of these neurological problems will eventually disappear all together. Personally, I would not recommend breeding two Enigmas together--at least not until after a few generations of outcrossing, anyway.

 

[PSGeckos]

Personally, I would not recommend breeding two Enigmas together--at least not until after a few generations of outcrossing, anyway.

Dratts, i only have this pair and i can't afford anymore, maxed out my credit card on these two I have Bell Albino female that i will put the male too, maybe i should email Kelli to see if they are in some way related.

 

[Baysidegeckos]

Sorry

 

[Baysidegeckos]

Sorry

 

[Mel&Keith]

I don't think that the Enigmas being related or not related would matter.

Of the babies we got from our Enigma het Bell (bred to a MSB), the non-Enigmas grew at the fastest pace and then the Bell Enigmas which grew much slower. We hatched one Mack Snow Bell Enigma who would not take food, had problems shedding, eye infections, etc. and and did not make it. It just showed us that as a greater number of genetic traits combined, the less hearty the geckos became.

Of course it would be cool to hatch a Super Snow Bell Enigma from breeding two Bell Enigmas together but do I believe that it would have any chance of surviving...no.

Trying to hand feed that MSBE everyday helped us realize exactly how weak the genetics of the early Enigmas are and that out-crossing to an unrelated male wasn't enough to handle all of those traits manifesting themselves in one little gecko.

 

[Jenna4Herps]

I also have a female enigma het bell who has been proven out as het bell last season by producing bells (by another breeder). She displays none of the characteristics that some of the F0 populations enigma's had, nor do I see any of Paul's observations with her. Since I did not breed her last season, I do not have first hand experience with her offspring, although I was told the bell babies were fine (no enigma's were produced).

So, as with some others here that has posted on this thread, I have an enigma that does not seem to have any of these issues. However, I intend to keep a close watch on any offspring she has this season since I am aware of early issues.

I do think that with selective breeding and breeding to strong morphs will help to eradicate these early developments. It will take everyone to be aware of the issues and then to try to make sure that we attempt to eliminate them. I still am interested to find out however, if these traits are only passed on by enigmas who show the disorders OR if these traits are also passed by enigmas who don't outwardly show the traits at all.

Mel - Keith: It is very interesting to hear about your experience with the Mack Snow Bell Enigma. I'm sorry the little gecko didn't make it .

It is good to hear other's experiences with their out-crossing as I am trying to determine a proper mate for her now (she is ovulating!). I am more confused than ever as to what I should mate my now ovulating enigma het bell with as it is my wish to make the enigma morph stronger...

 

[DanTheFireman]

I first heard about this after receiving a 20 gram or so enigma on a trade. It exhibited slight tremors and some circle walking, some uncoordination when feeding although eats very well and has gained weight well. She's been quarantined extra well as a precaution. I'll keep notes on any changes in this condition and compare with other breeders. I said nothing to this person about the problem which was apparent when the animal was received but that wasn't too cool on their part. Hope they enjoy their animals, including the very nice extra one thrown in so they'd feel that they made out well.

 

[robin]

i know about the "neurological" disorder that you guys are speaking of. i have hear that SOME do "grow" out of it while others do not. why do some "grow" out of it and other don't i do not know. it would be interesting to find out exactly what "this" is.

as far as hidden recessive traits you never know if there will be blizzard or patternless in there too. i guess we will see as time does on

and marcia blizzards are still nasty tempered just not all of em

 

[bro paul]

We had the pleasure of hatching 10 enigmas last season and they were all over the map. Some were excellent feeders, some weren't. Some showed a bit of circling and light sensitivity (extreme light sensitivity in my opinion)...and others did not. I'm no expert, but I personally do not think what I saw was "neurological"...or if it was, it was very slight. Most of the ones showing this behavior either outgrew it or it became minimized with age. I have worked with other leopard geckos (non enigmas) that had true neurological problems...and what I've seen with the few "funky" enigmas I hatched this season did not match. For me, it was hardly noticeable (perhaps I was just so excited about hatching them??) until I spoke with other breeders who had seen similar behavior. To me it looked more like an extreme light sensitivity.

 

[robin]

also as far as their eye sight in the red eyed enigmas. i do not think they have a blindness issue but rather a light sensitivity issue, normal bells as it is are normally much more sensitive to light compared to the rainwaters and trempers. the addition of the genes that make an enigma may just add to that sensitivity to light.

 

[robin]

also a question for you guys. from your experience, of the enigmas that go in circles or exhibit this "neurological" type of behavior. are they red eyed enigmas or regular enigmas or both?

 

[KelliH]

Most act completly normal, some exhibit a slight "slowness", a few are really weird acting (walking in circles). In no way do ALL of them walk in circles (sorry Albey, but I've produced over a hundred Enigmas and I know this is not the case
Of course just about everyone is doing outcrossing, so it is just going to take time to see if this is able to be bred out of the line or not. Oh, also many of them do seem to outgrow their starnge behavior.

 

[KelliH]

Also, if anyone's wholesale pricing is ever posted here again, that person will be out of here permanently. That is not cool on so many levels.

 

[robin]

:shocked: i musta missed that post

 

[Mel&Keith]

We've only hatched one Enigma that circles. All of the Enigmas we've hatched have been Red-Eyed Enigmas so that's all I have to compare her to. The circling has lessened as she's aged and it appears to be light related. Here's some video I just took:

Very low light: no circling


Medium light: squints eyes and shows sensitivity to light


Bright light: closes eyes, very sensitive to light


The others are light sensitive but do not close there eyes as tightly or react as dramatically as this one.

 

[Sandra]

My red eyed enigma reacts to light more or less like my other normal bells do.

So, what's your opinion about breeding this animals? Would you take out of any breeding projects any gecko that is showing issues? Or rather breed them to strong and unrelated animals to try to 'dilute' the problem in the next generations?