New Enigma Thread

[Mel&Keith]

My red eyed enigma reacts to light more or less like my other normal bells do.

So, what's your opinion about breeding this animals? Would you take out of any breeding projects any gecko that is showing issues? Or rather breed them to strong and unrelated animals to try to 'dilute' the problem in the next generations?

I'm not sure yet. We have the better part of a year before she's big enough to breed so we'll wait and see how this all play out until then. I have a feeling that out crossing is going remedy most, if not all, of these problems.

 

[nwheat]

Neurological issues can pop up for a variety of reasons of course, but there is a recessive gene in corn snakes that causes a condition called stargazing. If this behavior is also caused by a recessive gene, we should be very careful about breeding individuals with this trait or we could potentially have this problem spread through every morph. Outcrossing will hide the trait temporarily. If it is a simple recessive trait, it will eventually start popping up all over.

I'm guessing that the data is already out there to determine if this behavior is caused by a recessive gene.

 

[paulnj]

Sorry, but I disagree that it's a neurological issue until proven as such.

This thread is getting a bit damaging to the morph with nothing more than educated guessing. Plenty of enigmas are out there THRIVING like any other morph, so why are we judging them as a whole on the actions of a percentage of them?

I in no way am pointing the finger at any post here, but this thread is taking a path that is starting to look bad for anyone who intends to ETHICALLY hatch out beautiful healthy enigmas .

 

[Sandra]

Paul, I think I'm not mistaken if I say that everyone who has posted in this thread loves enigmas and by no means we want to harm the morph. If we are discussing this is for nothing but to improve this morph and know more about it.

But enigmas have some negative aspects we can't just deny. If there's a percentage of enigmas that have issues, why not learn and inform others about it? I think being secretive about it is what would damage enigmas the most.

Edited: I forgot to comment this statement "Sorry, but I disagree that it's a neurological issue until proven as such".

We know that walking in circles is a symptom of neurological disorders in many animals. Until we know anything else, this is the most plausible reason for the weird behaviour of enigmas (which doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth, but you can't deny the possibility).

 

[giantkeeper]

My normal Enigma from Kelli rocks....no issues!

 

[nwheat]

Yikes, that is the last thing I want to do!

I am only suggesting sharing info and using caution when breeding the affected individuals. Enigmas are amazing, and it would be terrible if they become entwined with a problem.

In the case of stargazing in corn snakes, it is entwined with a hypo-type trait called sunkissed. They are beautiful, and very desirable. The corn snake community is working to separate these two traits so one can be enjoyed without the detriment of the other. If this issue does turn out to be a simple recessive trait, we can work around it - but only if we put in the effort to figure it out.

 

[paulnj]

That was just my friendly observation. I am sure that nobody wants to give a bad name to the enigma and we all want the best for them.......

 

[bro paul]

Does anyone know of neurological problems in reptiles that improve with age or disappear altogether in individuals as they age?

 

[PrototypeGeckos]

I have noticed no circling or anything of that nature at all with my male Enigma Het Bell I got from Kelli. I have hatched two Red Eye Enigma offspring from the one breeding I have done with him so far and both of those babies show the circling action, one more than the other. As Mel & Keith pointed out, this is happening when there is bright light. I have watched them in their tubs when they are pushed back in the rack and movement is perfectly normal, but when you pull the tub out into the bright light, there is immediate circling, again one hatchling more than the other. To me, this proves it is light sensitivity in my opinion, not neurological conditions.

 

[Albey]

In no way do ALL of them walk in circles (sorry Albey, but I've produced over a hundred Enigmas and I know this is not the case
Of course just about everyone is doing outcrossing, so it is just going to take time to see if this is able to be bred out of the line or not. Oh, also many of them do seem to outgrow their starnge behavior.

Kelli, I am sorry I did not mean to infer all of the Enigmas did that. My Original Female did and I received her from the Bell’s before you actually had any available. The ones I checked out at the Bells table the following year did it also but I didn’t look at every single one they had available. I have talked to other breeders that have gotten Enigmas from you that do not do the circle walking so I know it is not in all of them. The point I was trying to make was that just because some Enigmas do the circle walking it doesn’t mean they are suffering from a Neurological Disorder. Once again I feel it is just a Funny quirk that make the Enigma such an Enigma. :main_laugh:

By the way for those of you who are wondering, the first year I produced 4 Enigmas and 6 Normal’s from my original Female out crossed to a Tangerine Male. None of the Normal’s did any circle walking and the Enigma’s did much less than the Mother. So far this year I have produced 6 Enigma’s and 4 Normal’s. These are from one of the original Female's son’s out crossed to various morphs. Once again the Enigma’s are doing even less circle walking and the Normal’s do none. This tends to convince me the circle walking is an inherent trait in the Enigma and that out crossing will eventually eradicate it. Like I said before, I don’t care either way. I love the Enigma’s.:main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Does anyone know of neurological problems in reptiles that improve with age or disappear altogether in individuals as they age?

Earlier this year, I hatched out a carrot-head Tremper male (not an Enigma!) that was very small, and walked in circles and did "Stevie Wonder" head waving. He had a very hard time getting started, and I considered humanely euthanizing him. When he finally began eating on his own and growing, he eventually outgrew the neurological 'symptoms'. He turned out to be a very lovely gecko, but was sold with full disclosure to a pet-only home.

I would like to re-iterate for many of you... I spent quite a bit of time with Kelli and the Enigma's earlier this year as well as in October 2006. I did not see very many of these morphs exhibit the symptoms we are discussing, and the only ones that did were not any of Kelli's offspring... they were the originals. I have 1.1 RE's and 1.1 regular Enigma's (one of which is an original), and none of them walk in circles or wave their heads around.

Like I said earlier in this thread, literally EVERY 'new' morph ever produced has had some issue when they were originally introduced... some that proved to be genetic. We have openly discussed those issues amongst ourselves and on public forums, and it has been extremely positive... only done good for all concerned. I have a lot of respect and faith in most of us who are working with the Enigma, and agree with Paul Sage that I am not really too concerned about the potential and future of the morph.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Marcia, that is an excellent point about only the original Enigmas from Mark demonstrating the strange behaviors. I also think that it goes to show how much Kelli's diligent out crossing has helped this morph in the next generation, and even more in the one after that. I've seen many of the Enigmas she's produced and have yet to see one circle, yet other Enigmas that were the same age produced by the Bells did.

I appreciate everything that everyone has contributed in this thread and think it will only strengthen the morph to have our experiences out on the table.

 

[LeosForLess]

have personally never seen a Rainwater albino of any sort on Mark Bell's tables, and to the best of my knowledge he doesn't work with that strain.

Sorry i didnt read after this cuz i have finals tomorrow, but i almost bought a rainwater from them at the 2005 NARBC. This is where i chose the path of the tremper lol.

 

[DanTheFireman]

Wow, this is awesome - very reassuring indeed. My male het Raptor has been as normal as they come while the female originating from the Bells displayed the circling and tremors; of course I was thinking the worst. She does seem to be improving with growth. Now for some observation under different lighting conditions, the Bell and many Tremper albinos do display some similarities when exposed to bright light. Thanks all for the valuable info. These animals hold so much potential it's mindboggling and we're all in for some serious ooh and ahh sessions as they progress.

 

[Lottiz]

My normal Enigma from Kelli rocks....no issues!

The same with mine :main_yes:

 

[MSMD]

I don't currently have any enigmas, but I would like to start with some enigma projects at some point. This is a wonderful, informative thread! This group of people is really great. To be able to discuss something with the potential to be a little.....erm......possibly touchy and have everyone be so open, honest, and unbias for the better of the breeding community is really awesome!

Geckoforums rocks! :main_yes: :main_thumbsup: I have learned SO much on here! You guys are the best.

 

[Sandra]

No heads rolling on the ground yet? Cool Well, now that we have made some progress, let's put it all together.


Experiences

Albey Scholl - Enigma (no type mentioned, but normal I guess) walked in circles. This female's enigma children (4) and grandchildren (6) all show circle walking, but it's less evident.

Chris McAra - Normal enigma showing no issues.

Dan Lubinsky - Enigma (no type mentioned) walks in circles, shows uncoordination and tremors.

Dan Poe - RE enigma has poor eyesight and shows over sensitivity to light.

Debbie Prince - Has three enigmas (Tremper enigma, MS enigma and normal enigma). None of the have issues.

Jenna Tynan - Normal enigma, showing no symptoms.

Kelli Hammack - Hatched over a hundred enigmas, a little percentage of them showed issues.

Liselott Aronsson - RE enigma has walked in circles in the past.

Marcia McGuiness - 2 RE enigmas and 2 normal enigmas, none of them have issues.

Melanie - RE enigma shows light sensitivity.

Melody and Keith - Hatched RE enigmas, non-enigmas and MSB enigma from an enigma cross. Noticed slow growth in RE enigmas compared to their non-enigma siblings. MSB enigma was very weak and didn't survive. One of the RE enigmas shows circle walking that seems related to light sensitivity.

Paul Allen - Hatched 10 enigmas (no type mentioned), some showed circling and light sensitivity.

Paul Sage - Had one enigma (no type mentioned) with issues that didn't devolope until she was 6 months old. To his knowledge, any offspring he has produced show no issues.

Pete and Sarah - RE enigma and normal enigma showing no issues.

Sandra Sanz - Normal enigma does not show any symptoms. RE enigma walks in circles, has poor eyesight, does not show over sensitivity to light.

Shaun Pruitt - Normal enigma, no symptoms. Has hatched 2 RE enigmas that show circle walking that seems related to light sensitivity.


Possible causes of the problem

Nervous system

Pros - Neurological disorders cause animals from other species to walk in circles.

Cons - The sypmtoms aren't similar to other cases of neurological disorders in leopard geckos.

Light sensitivity

Pros - Some enigmas only show or increase the amount of circle walking when exposed to light. Symptoms like bad eyesight could be related to light sensitivity too.

Cons - Some enigmas show issues even if they aren't all that sensitive to light.

Accumulation of genetic traits

Pros - Enigmas combined with other genetic traits seem to be weaker than normal enigmas in general.

Cons - This doesn't happen in any other combination of traits in leopard geckos.

Umh... Did I forget something?

 

[Mel&Keith]

Pros - Enigmas combined with other genetic traits seem to be weaker than normal enigmas in general.

Cons - This doesn't happen in any other combination of traits in leopard geckos.

Umh... Did I forget something?

Actually, I think and any newer moph combinations have the same issues. Why do we see far more Super Snow Trempers than Super Snow Bells? Most of the Super Snow Bells have not survived. Tremper Albinos have been around for so much longer than Bells and more people work with them so naturally the genetics will be stronger and more survive. I'm sure there are many breeders who put together new combos that don't thrive. You just don't hear about it.

So that's the one point that I disagree with. It's not just isolated to Enigmas.

 

[Lottiz]

Nice!

I just want to make some adds.

-I got 2 Enigmas.
*One RE female had hard to find food and she was turning in circles to find it, swang her head trying to grab it (The "Stevie Wounder-moves") and missed it with about an inch, light sesitiveity I think. She was not moving in circles at all during her time in the box when she wasn't searching for food. To day I hand feed her and it's not a problem anymore.
*One normal enigma male. No problems at all. He is just perfect!

(I'm sorry...my bad English is a pest...)

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

This IS a great thread, and it shows just how much the leopard gecko community cares about each other and the future of the Enigma! Thank you Kelli, for GeckoForums.net. I know Kelli's vision when creating this awesome website was to provide all of us with a place to learn and share, and this thread is a perfect example of the success and cooperative efforts of it's members!

Sandra did a good job breaking down the facts given so far, but it also tells us that there really isn't enough data to prove any real trends or consistency yet... especially with this since it is based only on one example:

Accumulation of genetic traits

Pros - Enigmas combined with other genetic traits seem to be weaker than normal enigmas in general.

Cons - This doesn't happen in any other combination of traits in leopard geckos.

I also think it's important to note that in my observation, the Bell albinos seem to be more light-sensitive in general compared to the other two albino strains (except maybe the RAPTOR?). IF the red-eyed Enigma is a true ocular albino, or albino only in it's eyes, this could very well explain a hyper-sensitivity to light, as well as a condition called Nystagmus, which is common in ocular albinism.

"Nystagmus, is involuntary eye movement that can be part of the vestibulo-ocular reflex (VOR) or it can be part of a pathological process. It is characterized by alternating smooth pursuit in one direction and a saccadic movement in the other direction."

If this is the case, the symptoms of the Enigma we are considering to be of a neurological basis may be true, or may originate from other contributing factors.

I had a dog that developed Nystagmus, which made him walk in circles and have strange head tremors because his ocular function made the things he was seeing spin and he was trying to 'spot' or 'track' those objects. The veterinarian said they really don't know why this happens, but it is usually pathological, and it can simply disappear over time, or the animal's brain gets used to it and compensates for it. My dog's condition eventually subsided for the most part, but he still had a tendency to walk a little more in one direction.