Ok, so here's a good one... read, and let the discussion begin... I NEED SOME HELP!!!

[StatikStepz]

Ok, so here it is... I have a male Snake Eyed Tremper Albino Mack Snow and a female "Black Hole" (Enigma, Mack Snow, Eclipse) that will be bred together this upcoming season...

...So here is my question...

I've got quite the breeding pair that will give me quite the assortment of incredible high end babies... and i can't wait! :main_laugh: ...But i'm at a standstill, lol... :main_huh:

How will i be able to tell the babies apart? How will i know what morph each baby is because the majority of all of them will look VERY similar...

These 2 bred together will produce Super Snows, Dreamsickles, Novas, Super Novas, Raptors, Super Raptors, BEE's, etc... And of course, more Black Holes, Mack Snows, Enigmas, Mack Snow Enigmas, and all diff. variations and morph combos of each... etc etc etc...

I mean, i've seen all of these before, and know what they look like, but as we all know, there are so many diff. variations and ways each can look. My point is, i wouldn't wanna sell what i thought to be a Dreamsickle, and then have it end up to be a Super Raptor, lol. Or sell someone a Nova, and then find out that it really was and turned out to be a Super Nova (i'd be very mad :main_lipsrsealed: lol). How on earth would anyone be able to tell the 2 (or others) apart?????????

...ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!! THANX!!!

 

[robin]

did you keep track of which babies are the offspring of what parents?

from all the morphs you have, you should know what the different morph looks like plus knowing the parents.

just my opinion

 

[StatikStepz]

did you keep track of which babies are the offspring of what parents?

from all the morphs you have, you should know what the different morph looks like plus knowing the parents.

just my opinion

These 2 have not been bred together yet... they will be bred together this upcoming season, and are in their own cage.... so i wouldn't need to keep track of what babies are from what parents, because all babies would be from the 2 parents, lol

...and as far as me knowing what each one looks like, and knowing the parents, thats why i posted this, is because i am asking and looking for a couple answers. I don't think u understand my question... And yes, i know what the parents would be... A Snake Eyed Tremper Albino Mack Snow and a Black Hole. I said that in my post... Which is the reason why i posted this. I don't understand your question now, lol.

 

[robin]

yeah i misunderstood it.

but if you have those there are going to be many possibilities like you know. and you may have to judge it when they hatch. it may not be easy but take photos of the babies when they hatched and pay close attention to the small details. it's gonna be a hard task

 

[StatikStepz]

Basically, what i'm saying is this... These 2 together can make a whole bunch of different kinds of babies. How will i be able to tell what genes/morph each is because just about all of them will look so simalar to the next, esp. when babies. Let me ask you this... Can YOU tell a Super Raptor from a Dreamsickle? Or a Super Nova from a Dreamsickle?

 

[StatikStepz]

yeah i misunderstood it.

but if you have those there are going to be many possibilities like you know. and you may have to judge it when they hatch. it may not be easy but take photos of the babies when they hatched and pay close attention to the small details. it's gonna be a hard task

gotcha. lol, so now u get where i am coming from, lol... Yeah, it will be hard. I just don't wanna classify a baby as somethin, and then it not even be remotely near what i thought it was, lol... Thanx!

any1 else have some help aswell? or know a few tricks to accomplishing the task?

 

[KelliH]

Basically, what i'm saying is this... These 2 together can make a whole bunch of different kinds of babies. How will i be able to tell what genes/morph each is because just about all of them will look so simalar to the next, esp. when babies. Let me ask you this... Can YOU tell a Super Raptor from a Dreamsickle? Or a Super Nova from a Dreamsickle?

This is the exact reason I don't work on some of these projects. You end up with a white gecko with solid red eyes and yeah, you can't tell one from another, all you can do is make an educated guess. Not such a good thing when it comes time to sell the babies.

 

[acpart]

I will confess that a lot of these new morph names are making my head spin, so I can't just give you a straightforward answer, but here's a method that may help you get started:

take apart each morph and list each of its characteristics, e.g. "super raptor": super snow, red eyed, patternless albino (I know I'm going to make some mistakes here because I don't work with these).

Group together in your list the ones that you think could be easily confused with each other. I know there's a thread posted here earlier discussing two of these morphs that can look exactly alike and I think the conclusion was that you really won't be able to tell.

Be clear on the hatchling characteristics that will help determine each morph as well as the morphs that are going to be hard to tell apart

Be clear on whether there are morphs that could only be determined by test breeding the gecko

You may discover that some of these new morph names describe similar traits (e.g. sunglow and hybino) and are not useful labels

Some of these babies may have to be labeled by their parents' genetics, e.g. "something" x "something else" rather than given a morph name, or may need dual labels. In these cases, I think their looks and description of their pedigree should be adequate to sell them as high end geckos.

I don't think every pairing result needs a morph name because, as you note, it gets confusing.

I know this isn't exactly what you wanted, but hopefully it will be of some help.

ALiza

 

[Wandering Paddle]

In some cases, the gecko will be nearly an adult before you can say with any reasonable certainty of the genetics. Some will be easy to tell, You should be able to tell your supersnows from snows and non-snows most of the time, but some of the non-snows and snows may be difficult... other times it could be obvious, like you shouldnt have trouble telling a nova from a bee or something like, but a baby super raptor or super nova or dreamsickle could be very difficult to identify, but if you kept these geckos until about 30 or so grams you should be able to tell in most cases...

but yea, you could potentially run into some issues. If I were you, i would contact breeders that deal with these high end combo morphs and see if they would be willing to send you some pictures of the offspring you are expecting. Best of luck

 

[Wandering Paddle]

Also, i agree with Aliza. Why cant we just call a dreamsickle a Mack Nova, or even easier... a Mack enigma raptor?

 

[StatikStepz]

Thanx guys! All your help really is appreciated! If anyone else may have any other input, it would be greatly appeciated aswell! So far, what i'm gathering is that for the most part, alot of these i won't be able to tell until they grow up n develop some more... that even the most educated breeder would have a hard time (which sux, buy hey, i guess thats the name of the game, rite?). I picked up the Black Hole at the Reptile Breeder's Expo in Orlando, FL, and on the way home i thought to myself that i was an idiot cuz i didn't get the guys card that i bought it from... lol... So there goes the idea of gettin ahold of the breeder that i got this from that worx with these to send me some pix of babies to help me out, lol. The guy had one of the biggest tables and displays of Leo's that were there, and the majority of them were all these kind of morphs. (it wasn't Ron Tremper, Steve Sykes, or Mike Rekowski)

...But anywayz, if worse gets to worse, i guess i'll just have to advertise it as what the parents are, and that it could either be "this" or "that", but no guarantee... and that the buyer takes the chance of what it might end up being. (just the ones that look EXACTLY alike, that i won't be able to tell)... Heck, if i were a buyer n sum1 was sellin a LEO that could either be a Super Raptor or Dreamsickle, but not sure as to which, i'd jump on it! lol

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

It appears we had a case of mistaken identity, and I sincerely apologize to Chris and the members of GF.

 

[crotaphytidae]

Let's take a step back for a minute and discuss what you have and what you can get and then go from there:

With a cross from a Mack Raptor X a Black Hole all the offspring that hatch will be Eclipse no matter what, Now if it looks enigmaish then you know you have BEE and if it turns out just black and white essentially hatching out a visual snow then you have a mack eclipse. Next look to see if the Mack Eclipse has enigma markings this will be a Black Hole. Now on to the albino offspring. If they hatch albino then you have a Raptor, now to determine if it hatches with an enigma look then it would be a Nova. If the gecko hatches as a Raptor but is white you'll need to let it grow to determine if it is a patternless mack raptor (it will get some orange coloring) or a Super Raptor looks like a Tremper Super Snow. Next to determine if the gecko is a Dreamsikle look to see if the it hatches white but begins to develop an enigma pattern then this will be a Dreamsikle, but if the animal stays patternless you have to determine between a super Raptor or a Super Nova. The only two animals that I could see you confusing for the other would be these two a Super Raptor with a Super Nova, unless (unfortunately) you witness it doing the Enigma movements such as turning and twitching then you can be more certain that it's a Super Nova. I hope this makes sense and helps let me know if you need any more help. Also just take it one gecko at a time and don't confuse yourself with everything that could happen but rather figure it out when you get there and rule out all other possiblities to make your final conclusion for the future offspring. Good Luck

 

[xanderville]

On this pairing, I am just wondering about the black hole. Does the black hole actually carry an albino gene. For some reason I thought a black hole was a Mack Snow Eclipse Enigma? Is a black hole actually homozygous for an albino strain? But maybe I missed if you said the black hole was het for tremper.

In other words if the black hole has no albino trait whether homozygous or heterozygous, you will not be able to produce a Raptor or anything that carries a raptor influence, like nova, dreamsickle, super nova and so on.

But maybe your Black Hole is het for albino and I just missed it.

 

[StatikStepz]

It appears we had a case of mistaken identity, and I sincerely apologize to Chris and the members of GF.

Its all good. But yeah, i'm not the guy that u are thinkin of, lol...

 

[StatikStepz]

Thanx Crotaphytidae! Your reply helped alot! Aswell as everyone else's, of course. I'm deff. alot more certain now on my "predicament" since i 1st posted this thread. And deff. alot more confident now and think i can pretty much accurately classify what they will be with alot more certainly now that it will be alot more of an educated guess. And yeah, i can see now that pretty much the only ones that would be hard to tell apart would be the Super Nova, and Super Raptor. I guess i'd just have to grow them up to atleast sub-adult size to try n tell, or maybe even test breed em. Who knows... I'll just have to cross that bridge when i get to it. lol

 

[StatikStepz]

On this pairing, I am just wondering about the black hole. Does the black hole actually carry an albino gene. For some reason I thought a black hole was a Mack Snow Eclipse Enigma? Is a black hole actually homozygous for an albino strain? But maybe I missed if you said the black hole was het for tremper.....

No, the Black Hole has no Albino gene in it. Where the albino gene is coming from is from the Male that it is being paired with... The Male is a Snake Eyed Tremper Albino Mack Snow. So that is where the Albino will be added into the equation to make the Eclipse Gene, the Raptor Gene.

I'll post pix for em whenever i get my camera charged.

 

[StatikStepz]

I actually have another question that i just thought of right now...

Because of all these genes that will be thrown together, would that make the babies "het" for any of the other genes that didn't make it??

For instance, if a Nova hatches out, would it actually be a Nova het Mack Snow, because it's parents had that? Is that possible? lol Or Nova het Eclipse?

Or would it just be that certain genes came together to create the baby, and thats all the genes that it would have...?

 

[R.E.F]

From the pairing: Male Snake Eyed Tremper Albino Mack Snow x Black hole female.
WILL NOT make any Raptor gen! all babies will be het albino, and not raptor!
and it cant be het for mack snow, either its mack snow or its not.

 

[StatikStepz]

From the pairing: Male Snake Eyed Tremper Albino Mack Snow x Black hole female.
WILL NOT make any Raptor gen! all babies will be het albino, and not raptor!
and it cant be het for mack snow, either its mack snow or its not.

correct me if i'm wrong, buuuuuut....

isn't Eclipse pretty much the non-albino version of Raptor? I know what the word "Raptor" stands for, but if you make an albino Eclipse, wouldn't it be a Raptor