Pick up a new pal today, is this a Black Pearl Leo?

[fl_orchidslave]

I believe we need to make some adjustments to keep animals healthy in captivity vs life in the wild. Maybe in the wild, they don't live as long due to less than desirable conditions that can occur at any time. No way to know unless a huge research project along with deep pockets starts tagging leopard geckos and maintaining documentation for 20 years. I also believe experienced gecko keepers can do things on a more advanced level in setting up naturalistic vivs, because they completely understand their animals and are immediately aware if something is amiss. Furthermore, keeping things simple for someone starting out with geckos will help them have a good experience in keeping their pet happy and healthy. Just my half a cent worth.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

what about people who use back heat, like in racks? is that wrong to keep them like that?

Not relevant to this discussion because back heat in racks heats the back of the tub bottom to the desired temp. We are discussing if overhead lighting is sufficient on it's own without the need for belly heat.

 

[robin]

Not relevant to this discussion because back heat in racks heats the back of the tub bottom to the desired temp. We are discussing if overhead lighting is sufficient on it's own without the need for belly heat.

it is. do you see a leo pressed up to the back of the enclosure trying to get heat on the belly? i certainly have not. they do not get belly heat per say but rather a temperature gradient from cool (in the front) to warm (in the back). the heat gradient is more important than having direct belly contact.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Agreed. But if you read my previous post I explained that with direct overhead lighting and no under heat I could not get the surface temp above 79 degrees. So is this considered proper keeping of a gecko? Laney made the point that for an inexperienced keeper, they need a basic setup. And that setup should not consist of sand and strictly overhead lighting in my opinion. I think it's irresponsible as experienced keepers to tell new Leo keepers that sand and only overhead lighting is Ok. But that's my opinion. Maybe we should have a poll on this subject..."who uses belly heat and who uses only overhead lighting? ". I already know what the results would be.

It's all good. To each his own. I'll keep using UTH's for my tanks and underbelly heat for my racks. Works perfect for me!

 

[Russellm0704]

Agreed wild west geckos. This guy has had at least 5 or 6 different people tell him the correct info and then one person comes and says that overhead heat is fine. I'll be honest, when I first got my gecko I had him on sand and overhead heat, but I came on this forum and I fixed the problem when I was told by several people to get under tank eater and paper towels. I have very healthy geckos now. Some people take the advice of what they want to hear instead of the advice given to them by 95 percent of people on here. Luckily this guy got an UTH and made a healthy choice for his Leo. But it only takes 1 person to throw someone off.

 

[Kulwiec]

Before I got the UTH, they would often lay on their rock hide after eating or just to lay on it, as well as a few spots in the sand. I put my hand on the rock and it is pretty warm, I don't have a probe or the tool to test surface heat, but it seemed like it was sufficient.

Previously I had owned a gecko for 7 years using only an overhead and he was very healthy.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

To be honest, Kelli didn't "recommend" that the OP should keep their gecko on sand and only use overhead lighting. She simply stated that she USED to keep her geckos this way...TWENTY YEARS AGO!

I just can't understand why some of the people who come here for advice don't listen. They fight it the whole way, even when many different people are telling them the same thing. It's crazy!

I too am glad that the OP went out and got a UTH. It's a wise decision. Now about that sand.........

 

[justindh1]

Keep on arguing with people who have a crap ton of experience more then you. You say back heat is okay but a heat lamp isn't. Don't they both provide a hot side that is needed? What is truly different if they both accomplish the same thing? Does a gecko have to have a hide that is hot or a side that is hot? They need something to regulate their internal temperature and it doesn't really matter in which way it is done. Some options may be better then others but they both work. Have you heard the saying that there is more then one way to skin a cat? Well there is more then one way to house a leopard gecko. Sand, done it! Lamp, done it. And you know what? I had healthy geckos.

 

[robin]

Agreed. But if you read my previous post I explained that with direct overhead lighting and no under heat I could not get the surface temp above 79 degrees. So is this considered proper keeping of a gecko? Laney made the point that for an inexperienced keeper, they need a basic setup. And that setup should not consist of sand and strictly overhead lighting in my opinion. I think it's irresponsible as experienced keepers to tell new Leo keepers that sand and only overhead lighting is Ok. But that's my opinion. Maybe we should have a poll on this subject..."who uses belly heat and who uses only overhead lighting? ". I already know what the results would be.

It's all good. To each his own. I'll keep using UTH's for my tanks and underbelly heat for my racks. Works perfect for me!

one "test" can not be stated as a fact for every situation. i know if i had geckos with a lamp on them in my house that the hide or bottom or paper towels would be around 90 degrees. i have a tank set up right now that has a snake in it. i do not have belly heat on her only an overhead lamp (i turn it off at night) and her current temp is 92.2 on the warm side and 77.4 on the cool side. it's a 20 gallon long. now it doesnt matter the animal (for this situation) but the temps i am getting off the floor are sufficient for a leopard gecko. the air temps are fine as well. can you keep your gecko this way and it be healthy? yes. is belly heat preferable. sure. i am not saying overhead lighting is the best but the same results can be achieved by using a correct wattage bulb.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Keep on arguing with people who have a crap ton of experience more then you. You say back heat is okay but a heat lamp isn't. Don't they both provide a hot side that is needed? What is truly different if they both accomplish the same thing? Does a gecko have to have a hide that is hot or a side that is hot? They need something to regulate their internal temperature and it doesn't really matter in which way it is done. Some options may be better then others but they both work. Have you heard the saying that there is more then one way to skin a cat? Well there is more then one way to house a leopard gecko. Sand, done it! Lamp, done it. And you know what? I had healthy geckos.

If you are talking to me, how do you know how much experience I have keeping reptiles? That's a very presumptuous statement. I was keeping frogs, snakes, iguanas and lizards before you where even born! Just because I joined this forum recently doesn't mean squat about experience. So if I were you, I'd keep my thoughts to myself.

There's no sense in arguing about this. You have totally missed the point. What I find ironic is that the same people who tell others not to use sand, will defend it's use in other posts! LOL! Practice what you preach, is what I say.

I agree there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd like to know which method you and robin use. So feel free to post how you warm your geckos. Do you use lights in your tubs??? I highly doubt it.

And for the record, we aren't arguing...we are DISCUSSING a topic. Isn't that what this forum is for? I'm done with this. Your right, I'm wrong. NEXT subject!!!!

 

[M_surinamensis]

I wanted to just quote an old post I wrote that included my oft repeated oven analogy, but I think the context here is worth responding to specifically.

First though, there has been a sort of sub-discussion about the answers people ask for, the answers they want, the answers they need, answers that are tailored to them, answers that are all encompassing, answers that are generalizations and answers that are specific. It can get a bit tangled as people try to figure out who to listen to and who not to, which answers are right and which ones are wrong... and most importantly, which ones are right for them right now.

So there are things that can be done by people who; know a subject a bit better, have a little more experience or a little more time or money to put in to making something work. There are techniques and tactics and terrarium plans that would be perfectly safe when used by one person but should be avoided by another. There are also things where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, about once a month I get this impulse to write a long, detailed post about some of the factors involved in using particulate substrates and halfway through typing I stop and close it. I don't want to accidentally give anyone who is not ready to use that information the mis-impression that they should try something before they're ready. Or worse, use it as a justification for ignoring the advice for beginner's given by others.

So, in very brief explanations here, with the massive caveat that what follows is NOT a thorough how-to guide or an endorsement of any method and should not be treated as such, overhead lighting and sand.

When we heat an enclosure, we usually just measure temperature. Heat is not just a measure of temperature though; temperature is certainly a significant factor, but there is also a question of the rate at which heat energy moves. How it transfers from the air and the hides and the substrate into the tissue of the gecko, how it builds up in some substances, and dissipates quickly in others.

All the talk of belly heat is based on instinctive behaviors noted in wild leopard geckos, which are crepuscular. They come out around dusk, to find a rock or some dirt or even sand that has been warmed by the sun all day long and is now radiating that warmth as the air cools down. At dawn, they find a rock or some dirt or some sand that is just starting to collect the heat of the new day. They look for surfaces which will provide the proper temperature, and which will allow that heat to move from it into their bodies. Diurnal lizards just go bask in the sun and absorb the heat directly. Crepuscular and nocturnal species adopt different strategies for thermoregulation.

The refrain! Consider an oven set to four hundred degrees. Everything inside the oven is four hundred degrees, the wire rack, the pizza you were cooking and the air. All four hundred degrees. Not all of these substances transfer heat at the same rate though, it would take some time for you to be burned by the 400 degree air, because air is a very poor conductor. You can grab the crust of the pizza with your fingers to lift it onto a plate, but wouldn't want to hold it for very long. Touching the metal would burn you almost instantly.

The insulating or conductive properties of everything in an enclosure, as well as the amount of heat it can absorb before it begins radiating that heat comes into play when using any kind of heating element. Exactly how each of these factors interacts will determine if it is appropriate and safe and healthy or not.

A light on an enclosure filled with conductive material, sand substrates and many types of rock as hides will collect, conduct and radiate the heat from a lamp. A light used on glass (a mediocre insulator, but an insulator), paper towels and plastic or some ceramic enclosures would not cause the heat to move well through the interior. Even something like a conductive substrate (sand or slate) and an insulating hide (say plastic or ceramic) can change where the heat ends up going... the hide can function like a cooler at the beach, maintaining a low temperature, low energy area.

Undertank pads, heat tape and heat rope are usually arranged so that they function as the radiating surface themselves. Rather than sending heat down from the lamp and then allowing it to radiate back up from the substrate as with a lamp, they just radiate straight up. That means that UTHs are much easier to use, more often than not, but lamps can certainly do the job, when used with an enclosure built to allow it. They even have some behavioral advantages, though how significant that factor is can definitely be a matter of debate.

Sand, dirt, soil and various particulate mixes are another subject where the understanding and planning can have an enormous impact on the likely success or failure of their use. Grade, shape, composition, packing density, moisture content, bonding interactions... all these things come into play. If someone knows what they are about, these factors can be selected, manipulated and built into something beneficial and functional. If someone doesn't, then they can do the opposite, create additional risk and complications.

How ready anyone is to utilize that information, any information, or how much effort they feel like putting into it is entirely a subjective call... though me being me, I tend to be a little pessimistic about a new owner's ability to make informed decisions. Kind of a tricky situation, on the one hand I hate incomplete information, on the other I don't want to inadvertently mislead someone who might be in a position to misunderstand or misuse something they were told. It's a really tough call, tough line to walk... giving them just what they need and leaving them limited, or giving them everything and hoping they aren't overwhelmed. The best answer for one person isn't always going to be the best answer for the next one in line.

 

[robin]

I agree there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd like to know which method you and robin use. So feel free to post how you warm your geckos. Do you use lights in your tubs??? I highly doubt it.

And for the record, we aren't arguing...we are DISCUSSING a topic. Isn't that what this forum is for? I'm done with this. Your right, I'm wrong. NEXT subject!!!!

i personally use back heat. i am not arguing at all. (i do not like sand btw)

 

[justindh1]

If you are talking to me, how do you know how much experience I have keeping reptiles? That's a very presumptuous statement. I was keeping frogs, snakes, iguanas and lizards before you where even born! Just because I joined this forum recently doesn't mean squat about experience. So if I were you, I'd keep my thoughts to myself.

There's no sense in arguing about this. You have totally missed the point. What I find ironic is that the same people who tell others not to use sand, will defend it's use in other posts! LOL! Practice what you preach, is what I say.

I agree there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd like to know which method you and robin use. So feel free to post how you warm your geckos. Do you use lights in your tubs??? I highly doubt it.

And for the record, we aren't arguing...we are DISCUSSING a topic. Isn't that what this forum is for? I'm done with this. Your right, I'm wrong. NEXT subject!!!!

I may of been a little over bearing on some of that, sorry bout that. In referring to experience, I meant leopard geckos. As for method, Semus seemed to explain that fairly well and a heck of a lot better then I could of at my best. Tubs also aren't the only way some can house a gecko. Heat lamps should only be used in tanks of course.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I should stress that the decision to go with any given method is not going to be solely based on one's ability to get away with it. I don't keep leopard geckos, but I have different species that are housed in different ways for different reasons. Display enclosures where I use lighting because they're too tall to heat solely from underneath. Maintenance tubs where the animals inside them are nocturnal ambush predators that bury themselves in their substrate and are heated from below because lights would not add anything of value. Things that are easier to clean, things that help the animal exhibit specific behaviors... lots and lots of options for lots and lots of reasons.

The fact that I feel comfortable using some things that I would not necessarily suggest to someone just starting out only increases what is available for me to do, it doesn't mean I have to take elaborate measures every time for every animal.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I agree with all that was said. Back to the whole purpose of this thread.......the OP isn't the most experienced when it comes to keeping leopard geckos so I merely suggested they use a UTH. Period....end of story. If that's bad advice for a novice keeper, then I apologize. But to tell me I'm wrong for recommending that as well as no sand for a beginning keeper, that's ridiculous. Am I wrong!?!

If anyone else has better suggestions for a beginning keeper then please post for them.

 

[M_surinamensis]

the OP isn't the most experienced when it comes to keeping leopard geckos so I merely suggested they use a UTH. Period....end of story. If that's bad advice for a novice keeper, then I apologize. But to tell me I'm wrong for recommending that as well as no sand for a beginning keeper, that's ridiculous. Am I wrong!?!

I'm inclined to agree with your approach. Mostly.

It's definitely why I keep not-finishing some exhaustive how-to-do-it-better post about sand. I tend to need to get to know people a bit before I'd trust them not to wear their underpants on their head though.

I think the disconnect came from the use of absolutes. I'm not real inclined to go back and see who said exactly what, so I'm not speaking about anyone who participated... but there was some sense that using sand and lights was wrong. Not "sometimes wrong" or "can be done wrong" or "wrong for this guy at this time" but just plain wrong, no exceptions, no qualifications.

Which is more a conversational thing than anything else. Implications, inferences, what was meant and what was written and what was understood.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Exactly my point. Take the conservative approach with inexperienced keepers of certain species. Pheeeeeww.....glad this craps over with.

 

[KelliH]

Sorry I have missed the discussion for the past couple of days. No, there is nothing wrong with using a heat lamp on leopard geckos. Nothing at all.

Of course I don't keep mine that way anymore. I use rack systems now, not tanks. One more point... back heated racks do not heat the floor of the enclosure, rather they increase the overall temperature in the back of the bin. I used back heat AP and Nature's Spirit racks for years, which is why I know this information. I prefer the belly heated racks because they use less electricity.

I've been keeping and breeding leopard geckos for a lot of years now, quite successfully I have to add. I might know a little bit more about that subject than someone that has been keeping and breeding leopard geckos for a couple of years, don't you think?

Just because I own this website doesn't mean I don't get to express my opinions too!

 

[sunshinegeckos]

of course you get to express your opinion but as the owner your opinion will carry more weight with some (especially new people on the site). Everyone is going to have a different answer but I think lowering the risks for new owners is the best bet. Thats is just my opinion.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Everyone is going to have a different answer but I think lowering the risks for new owners is the best bet.

E X A C T L Y. I think everyone missed the point here. You can keep them any way you wish, but for new owners, I wouldn't recommend anything but a simple starting setup to lower the risk of health issues. After they keep them for a while with no issues, and they want to put sand in the tank, or use overhead lighting or what have you, then fine. I personally wouldn't, but it's a personal choice. I think that there are so many opinions and so much varying information, that a new owner needs to just start with the easiest, safest setup, for the safety of the animal. And that's ALL I'm gonna say about that! :main_thumbsup:

Nice to have you back Kelli!