Questions about inbreeding!!!!

[justindh1]

So I have never done any inbreeding yet but I have a juvenile that I would like to breed to his mom. They have some traits that I would like to inhance. I know that it can be done up to 3-4 generations but I am not going to do it past breeding mom to son. Just want to breed son to mom atleast this next season.

The questions that I have is.....

When inbreeding the first time, will there be any deformities the first season? If so what do you thing the percentages would be? I know it varies but roughly what could they be?

If you do inbreed and sell them, do you let the buyers know that they are from an inbreed pairing?

If there is anything else you think I should know before I pair these two up then I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Khrysty]

From my understanding (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here) inbreeding doesn't cause deformities or other health issues until a few generations in. That's why they say not to go past a certain number of generations in the first place.

 

[justindh1]

I wasn't for sure with whether there would be any deformities with in the first couple pairings. Thats one thing I was confused about. I know that over 3-4 causes more deformities or weak genetics but wasn't for sure if any will happen during the first generation of inbreeding. I have looked over the other threads about inbreeding but usually they only talk about how many generations you can go for the gecnetics to be strong still and when you need to outcross.

 

[serialzombie]

Deformities should only happen if "bad genes" are already present. And even then, pairing related individuals only makes it more likely that two sets of a maladaptive gene will be inherited.

 

[thestack510]

I would be more concerned with temperature fluctuations than the inbreeding aspect. I have yet to inbreed, but if I did decide to do it I wouldn't go past three generations myself.

 

[sunshinegeckofarm]

personally i don't like inbreeding it brings too much of a chance to bring on deformities and weak offspring. I don't know if anything would show in the 1st gen of inbreeding but i wouldn't risk it in my opinion because where are you going to rehome the deformed geckos so they don't go to someone that might possibly breed them and create more deformed geckos. I think outcrossing is best or if you want to breed related geckos but not really closely related ones since everyones geckos are related in some way its just extremely far back in generations. Good luck with your breeding projects.

 

[justindh1]

So Ken, are you saying that there probably won't be any deformities during the 1st-3rd generation of inbreeding?

Danielle, Have you inbreed before? If so have you had any deformities during the first generations? I think if any deformities would come out of a inbreeding pairing I would cull them instead of selling them. I know outcrossing is best because it strengthens the genetics but I am wondering about inbreeding.

Is there anyone who has done any inbreeding that could say alittle bout the outcomes of the 1st generation?

All information is appreciated and helpfull, Thanks!

 

[GeckoTrouble]

I'm not a breeder, but I don't think you can rely on "you probably won't have any deformities through the 1st-3rd generation of inbreeding".
Deformities, both visual and hidden genetically could easily be present in the first generation. Remember, just because a gecko looks fine externally, does not mean that it is not either got something internal going on, or that it is not carrying a bad gene. From there, when you breed the first generation babies, you run the risk of passing on bad genes into previously clean bloodlines. Then if you breed the first generation back into themselves, you can hugely compound the problem... Deformities and other anomalies may not start showing up until the 2nd or 3rd generation, but then think of how many leos that are potentially carrying the genes for these problems may now be in your other breeding projects, or have been sold to other breeders and are now part of their projects.

In pretty much all ethical breeding projects of all species, the one thing folks try to steer well clear of is inbreeding (the exception being when there is no choice because the species is critically endangered/extinct in the wild and the breeding population is limited).
But because reptile breeders more often than not are breeding for colour and not genetic diversity and strength, this seems to go by the wayside.
The fact that folks are still breeding for enigmas even with their known potential issues shows that.

If you really want to breed this male to enhance a certain trait, put the word out to other breeders and find a compatible female from a different blood line.

 

[sunshinegeckofarm]

I agree with Gecko Trouble. No I have not inbred my leos knowingly, i put animals from different breeders together so I have less risk of inbreeding because in my opinion because to me its not worth having deformed geckos coming out when there is so many geckos available that you can buy pretty much anything you want to enhance your lines with. I think line/inbreeding should be left with the more experienced breeders in the leo community. I have seen for my self weak geckos that fail to thrive and end up dying now i don't know the reason why but i think it has to do with inbreeding too much to create new morphs and such and also i have experienced sterile animals too. I think the leo community needs to outcross with strong lines possibly from WC lines to bring new blood into the morphs we have. I am only by what i have witnessed in the 10 years I have owned and bred leos, I just don't think inbreeding does good if used too often and should only be left to those that have bred generations and generations of leos and know alot of the lineage in their geckos. I wasn't saying you were going to sell them but if they were healthy enough to live with the deformities then it would be right to give them a good home thats only a pet home not breeding home. I have one gecko now that has a small eye and a underbite and development problems i bred but the geckos were unrelated but i had temp problems since my AC broke but im not letting it go to someone i don't know, its either going to stay here or go to my mom&dad and I have a adult male that i dont know whats up with his eye but it dont look right but i didnt breed him or buy him directly from the breeder i got him in a trade so hes going to go with my mom&dad since i dont know whats up with his eye. I don't know what morph your working with but im sure you can find a good match for it with the geckos available everywhere.

 

[acpart]

I have bred daughters to the father several times as well as grandaughter to father with no ill effects. I am careful to balance outcrossing and inbreeding so as not to cross to extensively and I am reluctant to inbreed my Mack snows since I have a feeling that the gene pool is way too small for that. I have a male SS and two female Macks and do not breed the female he sired back to him.

Aliza

 

[justindh1]

Well I am definitly going to do more research on this topic before I even think about putting them together if I do at all now.

 

[thestack510]

So Ken, are you saying that there probably won't be any deformities during the 1st-3rd generation of inbreeding?

Things will likely be fine, though it can't be guaranteed. I believe more deformities are caused by temperature fluctuations than inbreeding. Hatching with no eyelids for example is not a genetic trait (imo) but does happen on occasion due to temperature fluctuations.

 

[justindh1]

Cool, thanks Ken and Aliza and everyone else! Thanks for helping me out!

 

[BSM]

just a thought to consider, say you inbreed for 2-3 generations and your original breeders came from someone would inbred them for 3 generations. Now that's 5 to 6 generations of inbreeding

 

[thestack510]

That would be true. I would hope the original livestock came from at least two different sources to avoid this. The bottom line is that you should make it a point to outcross whenever line breeding to keep some diversify in the gene pool.

 

[justindh1]

I know that I need to outcross when I inbreed expecially if its past the F1's. I don't plan to breed past the 1st generations at all. The father and Mother of the juvenile is definitly from different livestock. I just wanted to figure out more about inbreeding before I decide whether I would or wouldn't. I appreciate everyone who has helped me with the questions that I have asked. I know there are all kinds of possibilities that could happen.

 

[snowgyre]

All of the dog, horse, cow, cat, (name random domesticated animal here), (name reptile morph here) breeds have originated from inbreeding to some degree. When offspring has a desirable trait, say, lots of orange, you know for certain that it acquired those genes from its parents. Breeding back to the parent increases the chance that those genes will be expressed in the next generation. In general crossing back 3-5 generations won't have deleterious effects.

There's a lot of scientific literature on beef cattle and horse breeding if anybody's interested. Go to Google Scholar and do some searches. Uhh... don't do searches for it on google, because you could get some... ahem... interesting websites when looking for bull breeding (I'll let your imaginations run wild here).

However, I do agree with what's been said in here. There are so many leopard geckos in the market today that inbreeding isn't necessarily needed, unless you find a unique trait isn't really expressed in many lines. JMG's lavender stripes come to mind. I may be making an incorrect assumption here, but I would imagine he got those animals to look like they do by careful inbreeding.

Inbreeding itself isn't bad. Inbreeding depression is bad. Just don't do it a lot, outcross, and you should be golden. If bad genes are present in the original parents, yes, there's a possibility that they will be passed down to the offspring faster with inbreeding, but outcrossing could prevent those traits from ever becoming expressed.

I used to be so much more informed on this topic, but it's been years since I took beef cattle genetics.

 

[justindh1]

Hey thanks Vanessa! Thats the kind of information that I have been trying to get to go along with the info Ken and Aliza gave me! I haven't seen any leos that looks similiar to the one that I have. They just have unique qualities!

Is there any other informations that you think is important to know if I do breed these two together?

I know that there are negatives to inbreeding but there are also positives. I just want to collect as much info as possible to make the best decision possible to what i should and shouldn't do and for what could and couldn't happen.

 

[snowgyre]

If you want an example of what not to do, then look up horse inbreeding. If you want an example of things done right, look up beef cattle inbreeding. Some horse breeds are notoriously inbred, heck, even dog breeds (like German Shepherds and Labrador Retrievers) are very inbred.

There's plenty of research available out there. Google is your friend. Just be careful which words you use to do your search with. ^_~

 

[BSM]

As you brought up dogs as there all from the same species, alot of breeds have health issues but when crossed into another type of dog the offspring are usually healthier. Mammals usually have more health problems when inbreeding occurs compared to reptiles in general