Sell morphs for their worth

[Kristi23]

Since I'm still pretty unknown and new to breeding, I try to price my geckos in between. I look at some of the big breeders and then look at the classifieds with "cheap" geckos and try to find a middle price. Sometimes figuring that out can be hard for me. I've purchased most of my breeding geckos from higher end breeders and have invested a lot. But I also know that most people will not pay that type of money from a more unknown, little breeder.

I do get upset when I see high end morphs priced for $15 and I do not buy from those breeders.

 

[robin]

No, I'm saying charge whatever you like for your animals, but that in my opinion leopard geckos should not warrant price tags in the thousands of dollars, due largely to the fact that are both very hardy and very prolific, not to mention the fact that they can breed at less than a year of age(things that can not be said about ball pythons for example). People who are concerned about the market value feel the need to produce as many visual morphs as soon as possible, and invariably find themselves with two racks of "investment quality" morphs that nobody is willing to buy,.. unless of course the seller drops their original asking price by 75%.
The reason that it can be compared to other "Ponzi" type schemes is that the people who got in on the ground floor are the ones that saw the big returns on their "investment quality" animals (a slogan that still gets tossed around today...), and subsequently marketed them as such, and as more and more people started getting "in", the pyramid started to grow, and the values started getting pushed down. Once the prices started going down, the number of buyers, and new breeders, went up significantly.
Then the numbers started to go the other way.
Too many geckos to sustain the need for "investment quality" morphs, and people who want a $50 gecko outnumber the ones who want a $500 gecko 50-1, so, all of a sudden those $500 geckos are only worth $100, because that's all that somebody will pay. Now everybody else who has their prices set at the market level are forced to drop their price, because remember, there are only so many people out there that want a gecko for it's genetics.

What I do not want to see are $10 normal leopard geckos, because like I said earlier, that kind of pricing makes them a flushable pet, "What's that little Jimmy? Your lizard died? Hmm,...maybe we were doing something wrong? Oh well, flush it down the toilet and we'll go get another one".
Hopefully that doesn't happen, but like other posters have noted, it's the sheer number of animals that are being produced that drive the market down.

On that note, a good way to help keep the market value up if you find yourself with too many geckos to keep is by selling to wholesalers. They mark the price up to the stores they supply, and the stores mark their prices up to sell to the end user.
Dave

through that entire read all i could think of is, supply and demand. plain and simple

i bet if we analyzed any business or product into the ground we could somehow make it fit into the above mentioned scenario

 

[BSM]

I have to agree with robin, greg and others (supply and demand)

One simple fact is people dont understand that more is not better and every time they over produce they are not only hurting themselves but other breeders at the same time. IMO i would never buy a new co dom or dominate morph the first year it comes out as the next year or 2 it will be 10x less then what you bought it for. enigmas and mack snows are the perfect example of this happening and here are two big ones

dreamsicle first year i saw them going for 2.5 to 3k on a few breeders sites and not even 2 years later they dropped to 550 and under

 

[Neo.Reptiliac]

The key is not to buy what is selling for a high price right now. If your looking to make money in this hobby. Plan on making something that hasn't been made yet.
As for those who lower the price to sell something. Choose wisely what you buy, those people may be a god-send for you if your creating a line of your own or a morph of your own. Sure it lowers the price on the new morphs but nothing is more valuable then a good healthy Leo from good lines that has the best possible qualities in the morph as possible. I have passed up on hundreds of high dollar Leos in the past for lower priced ones. Not cause they where lower but cause I found something I liked more in one. Then again I have also spent hundreds of dollars on just one gecko when I could have bought the same thing for pocket change. The price is not important when you have a goal in mind. Just keep at it. You will be rewarded eventually. Even if its not necessarily by making a big buck. The greatest reward is seeing your goals achieved.

 

[HepCatMoe]

i only deal with fatties, but ill be happy when the prices on morphs start dropping.

there is no way i could pay those outrageous prices for a gecko, $1000-$4000 is far beyond reasonable to me.

but i expect the prices to start dropping rapidly. take the white out for example, a year ago only jmg had white outs and he sold them for about $2000.

now a bunch of people have whiteouts, and it is inevitable that the price will go down. as the price goes down, more people will buy them and then even more white outs will be produced and the price will keep going down.

the only way to stop it would be for people not to breed. i personally enjoy breeding and would never tell anybody not to do it.

for me this is a hobby. i do it because its fun and i like working with the animals. thats why most people keep reptiles, and cheaper prices on morphs makes the hobby more fun for me.

also, if people want to make the big bucks, why are you breeding leos? they are super prolific and easy to breed. why not breed cave geckos or leaf tails or something?

lastly, one way to create (in my opinion) artificially high prices would be to have a gecko competition, like they do for pure breed dogs.

p.s. im not trying to tell people not to breed leo's, im just saying dont expect to get rich.

 

[SFgeckos]

Very interesting thread and great points from several people! I personally try to avoid “market” issues or arguments, because the way I see it, if you subtract the commercial market, all that is left is your own passion for reptiles. I’m sure the majority of us are animal lovers in general, having other reptiles beside leopard gecko mutations or non-reptile pets. Your dog, cat, bird, rodent or other pets have no priced “market value” because they are priceless. I see my passion and hobby for reptiles/exotics in the same way. I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years on reptiles, not because I’m looking to breed for profits, but because I feel that it’s a privilege for me to appreciate and own such wonderful creatures. Yes, I’ve sold many animals at low and high prices. However, many of the high-end reptiles I’ve produced were donated to educational facilities or given away as gifts (many of my neighbors’ kids have pet knobtail geckos and designer colubrids and they have no idea what their “market value” is). If I can help the next generation catch that “reptile bug” or instill future animal inspiration, then I feel that I’ve done my part for the hobby.

I think one of the main issues for the saturation and very competitive prices, especially on leopard geckos, is the internet exposure and the vast classified posting visibility. You see the same classified ads displayed over and over again, sometimes for weeks or months at a time! Personally, I try my best to post as few classifieds per year as possible because I have already worked to find outlets for most of the offspring I produce. I've been around since BEFORE the internet (yea, imagine that kids!) and faxed pricelist, newspaper ads or magazine classifieds were the only options before. Back then, breeders or hobbyists had to make extra efforts to build relationships with customers at shows, local petstores, educational facilities, and private hobbyists if they needed to find homes for their offspring. Unfortunately, that is not the case today- people just expect to produce and move their inventory easily. But when that doesn't happen? They lower their prices because they think that will increase their chances of moving their inventory instead of "working" to find other outlets. These are the "breeders" that are in the hobby a few years, then leave quietly.

As far as the term “investment quality”, I really think you should analyze exactly what that term means. The term investment is investing money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, which has a certain LEVEL OF RISK. Investing in animals is similar to putting money into the stock market, property or any business. In fact, you can take your money to the casino and do “investment” in legal gambling. All investments have risks, you just try your best to calculate those risk and determine “Can I afford to lose that money?” If you can, then make the investment…

Jon

 

[KelliH]

if you subtract the commercial market, all that is left is your own passion for reptiles.

:main_thumbsup:

Basically, don't get into this to make money.

 

[herpman97]

This doesn't really connect to the thread, but I want to get this out. Why is a RADAR $1000 dollars when it's just a Bell Albino Eclipse? Thats not even a Bell form RAPTOR. It's not Orange and it's not a Patternless Stripe.

 

[Baoh]

This doesn't really connect to the thread, but I want to get this out. Why is a RADAR $1000 dollars when it's just a Bell Albino Eclipse? Thats not even a Bell form RAPTOR. It's not Orange and it's not a Patternless Stripe.

Do you have one? The answer is there.

 

[robin]

Do you have one? The answer is there.

also i know of people with bell patternless stripe eclipses = a patternless RADAR. i have even seen a couple. stunning animals for sure

 

[trizzypballr]

Over the last few years we have seen Mack Snows come out high priced, and drop fast. We have seen Enigmas come out starting with a very high price tag and drop fast. We act like this is a surprise though? They are dominant, and co-dominant traits. You can buy an adult male and in a few months have offspring of the same morph to sell. Its very easy to see how quickly the market got flooded so prices had to drop. If you are in it to try to make a buck, the key isnt to stay away from these morphs when they first come out, the key is to be selective to what you are breeding them to and produce things that other people havent thought of producing. The more genetics involved the harder it is for others to be producing alot of the same thing, sure they might produce a few just like you are, but those few are still only going to be a few.... Meaning you will still be able to ask top dollar for them. As far as Novas go, a poopy looking Nova will go cheap, but if you are working with very nice orange geckos and produce a very nice orange NOVA, it will be worth more than a normal plain looking Nova will.

Tangerines have been around for awhile, but if you look around the majority of high priced geckos are tangs/sunglows, or are a morph combined with very nice tangerine color. The point to this being that tangerine colors are constantly getting better, people like JMG, Urban Gecko, and Kelli are constantly working to improve their tangerine lines, holding back their nicest offspring to hopefully produce even nicer tangs the following year. There will always be a variation in the color intensitys, even in clutch mates, NICE tangs will always be worth more than Poopy tangs are.

 

[GreenKnight Exotics]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenKnight Exotics View Post
No, I'm saying charge whatever you like for your animals, but that in my opinion leopard geckos should not warrant price tags in the thousands of dollars, due largely to the fact that are both very hardy and very prolific, not to mention the fact that they can breed at less than a year of age(things that can not be said about ball pythons for example). People who are concerned about the market value feel the need to produce as many visual morphs as soon as possible, and invariably find themselves with two racks of "investment quality" morphs that nobody is willing to buy,.. unless of course the seller drops their original asking price by 75%.
The reason that it can be compared to other "Ponzi" type schemes is that the people who got in on the ground floor are the ones that saw the big returns on their "investment quality" animals (a slogan that still gets tossed around today...), and subsequently marketed them as such, and as more and more people started getting "in", the pyramid started to grow, and the values started getting pushed down. Once the prices started going down, the number of buyers, and new breeders, went up significantly.
Then the numbers started to go the other way.
Too many geckos to sustain the need for "investment quality" morphs, and people who want a $50 gecko outnumber the ones who want a $500 gecko 50-1, so, all of a sudden those $500 geckos are only worth $100, because that's all that somebody will pay. Now everybody else who has their prices set at the market level are forced to drop their price, because remember, there are only so many people out there that want a gecko for it's genetics.

What I do not want to see are $10 normal leopard geckos, because like I said earlier, that kind of pricing makes them a flushable pet, "What's that little Jimmy? Your lizard died? Hmm,...maybe we were doing something wrong? Oh well, flush it down the toilet and we'll go get another one".
Hopefully that doesn't happen, but like other posters have noted, it's the sheer number of animals that are being produced that drive the market down.

On that note, a good way to help keep the market value up if you find yourself with too many geckos to keep is by selling to wholesalers. They mark the price up to the stores they supply, and the stores mark their prices up to sell to the end user.
Dave

through that entire read all i could think of is, supply and demand. plain and simple

i bet if we analyzed any business or product into the ground we could somehow make it fit into the above mentioned scenario

I am curious as to where the difference lies between what I posted (which you quoted above) and the article from the Wall Street Journal that you started a thread about.
http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=57084

Both speak of the prevalence of "Ponzi" type schemes in the reptile breeding world, whether it being ball pythons or bci's or bcc's or leopard geckos, so how may I ask was my essay an example of over-analyzed coincidences in the business world, while the article from WSJ that you posted was something to be revered???(I'm not trying to say that I'm as qualified a writer as the person who penned the article for WSJ,..I'm only a humble financial advisor in Canada,..but I think that the points made between the two pieces are strikingly similar)
Dave