Species and Sub species (questions and ethics)

[robin]

with all of the eublepharis species and e. macularius sub species coming out of europe and coming into the U.S., it is very exciting time. BUT has ANYONE stopped to do scale counts on these animals or are we just trusting what the breeder or seller is just telling us. i think it's high time for us to get some new stuff into the U.S and even in europe but what about the possibility of people passing off normal leopard geckos as sub species and species. i am sure the people who collected the wild caughts sure did not take the time to get scale counts, they most probably went by the area cewrtain species and sub species are suposed to be. so tell me who has done scale counts and how do we know if what we are buying is truly what we are buying.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

What is a scale count?

 

[thestack510]

Do you know the scale counts of the different species and subs, or where to find them? Is it in the book Winking Geckos: Eyelid Geckos of the World (that you know of)?

 

[gitrdone0420]

What is a scale count?

:main_laugh: Lol! I was thinking that the entire time I was reading this! Good question, what is a scale count?

 

[thestack510]

One of the things that can help differentiate one species or subspecies from another is the number of scales it has on particular parts of its body or its body as a whole.

 

[robin]

Ken, here is one place. http://sci.ege.edu.tr/~bgocmen/leopardgeckos.html#Family

i know of another but i have to find it

 

[Halley]

i've wondered the same thing myself.

 

[thestack510]

Thanks for the link. I have seen a similar article online but can't recall where myself. I really wish that article had better pics. All of the animals look pretty thin and don't look to me to be in optimal health (such is the wild, I guess), not to mention the dead (likely extinct) Hardwickii. I appreciate the link none the less for it's detailed descriptions. Thanks for posting.

 

[KelliH]

In my opinion the entire Eublepharis genus needs to be completely reworked and rewritten. Sadly it will not happen any time soon.

 

[thestack510]

Kelli, out of curiosity and for the purpose of discussion, where would you suggest reworking and rewriting the genus begin (a theoretical blueprint)? What would you say are among the necessary alterations?

 

[KelliH]

Well, for one thing some of the Eublepharis macularius ssp's have varying definitions depending on which publication you read. Some still classify montanus as a seperate species. Most list turcmenicus as a seperate species, while afghanicus is still classifieds as an ssp. of macularius. There are differing scale count definitions in some of the different publications as well.

 

[KelliH]

So to answer your question, I have no idea what should be changed as I have never worked in the field and done extensive studies on these animals, and in fact I don't believe there has been much done with the genus since the late 70's.

 

[thestack510]

I believe you're right about the information being out dated. Thanks for your replies, I understand your point more clearly now. I wish some people would take it upon themselves to get out there and do the field study, as well as the genetic study. I doubt it could be an American, I think politics would get in the way much like it hinders our acquisition of wild caught specimens.

 

[KelliH]

I know, I too wish someone could do some serious field work over there but I just don't think it's gonna happen in our lifetime.

 

[thestack510]

I hold out hope simply because I've heard of some pretty off the wall case studies in my lifetime. Stop studying the sleeping habits of fruit flies (I'm joking about this study in particular) and help us straighten out the facts about Eyelid Geckos already! :main_laugh:

 

[BGalloway]

It's all about the funding in my opinion, I'll bet there's at least a dozen people who want to go out there and study this in particular but can't justify the costs to the higher-ups. Thats how most of the students at my school who do research wind up working on an existing project rather than start their own. Stupid funding.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

Im sure someone could get the funding, but i also highly doubt it could be an American due to the political spectrum of the world. I also agree with Kelli that the entire family Eublepharidae could use some updating... it bothers me when 2 separate species can breed and produce healthy young. Such is the case with macularius and turcmenicus, though im not sure if any offspring from this pairing have reached sexual maturity... maybe someone can fill me in on this?

 

[Gregg M]

What is a scale count?

Scales that are usually counted to tell subspecies and species apart are:
Ventral and vent scales
Caudals
Upper and lower labials
Head scales and head structure

Scale counts are good for rule of thumb but counts can overlap and are not as reliable as molecular and DNA testing... Also scale counts can differ a lot between localities within the same species and subspecies...

Scale counts are also much more reliable in snakes more so than lizards, especially geckos...

 

[Gregg M]

it bothers me when 2 separate species can breed and produce healthy young. Such is the case with macularius and turcmenicus, though im not sure if any offspring from this pairing have reached sexual maturity... maybe someone can fill me in on this?

Why does that bother you???

Anyway, it is safe to assume that the huge majority of our captive leopard gecko stock are in fact hybrids or intergrades of most, if not all of the Eublipharid species and subspecies...

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

Scales that are usually counted to tell subspecies and species apart are:
Ventral and vent scales
Caudals
Upper and lower labials
Head scales and head structure

Scale counts are good for rule of thumb but counts can overlap and are not as reliable as molecular and DNA testing... Also scale counts can differ a lot between localities within the same species and subspecies...

Scale counts are also much more reliable in snakes more so than lizards, especially geckos...

Cool, thanks! When I looked it up it seemed to be more for snakes like you mentioned, but I did find some cool older articles on leopard geckos in the process of searching!