Species and Sub species (questions and ethics)

[robin]

i don't know call me untrusting but i will have problems buying Eublepharis and Eublepharis macularius, species and sub species without proof of what they are. i dont want to just take someones word for it, whom took someone elses word for it and that person probably took someone elses word for it and the collector of the animals just picked them out of the wild from certain geographical areas that a particular species and subspecies is supposed to be or maybe they look up old 1970's drawings or photos to match what looks like the animal or one that best matches it and say "this is 'X' gecko". since these geckos were studied so long ago i highly doubt any DNA was collected, so all we have to go on is drawings and/or photos.

 

[KelliH]

From what I understand the collectors label them according to their ranges, which overlap in some cases and most likely have extended or lessened since the original descriptions.

 

[robin]

From what I understand the collectors label them according to their ranges, which overlap in some cases and most likely have extended or lessened since the original descriptions.

so what do ya do? plus people could just be breeding normals het nothing and pawning them off as some subspecies or species.

 

[ang3l3s]

so what do ya do? plus people could just be breeding normals het nothing and pawning them off as some subspecies or species.

I was afraid of that as well but i found out who the few were who had afghanicus and just so they were reliable. After having them for awhile they are aesthetically different and are really nothing like my other leos , i did read an article on the scale thing but it does not cover all the subs plus what if u have and afghan/fascio cross... what to do?? I wanted to get some fascios as well but got scared once i heard there were people selling them as such but they were either crosses or not sub at all, i stuck to the afghans cause they are visibly different and they have such a great demeanour. Mind u i have never seen or heard a fascio but 2 of my afghans screamed like i have never heard b4 from a leo, if fascios are worse....sheesh!!!!

 

[robin]

I was afraid of that as well but i found out who the few were who had afghanicus and just so they were reliable. After having them for awhile they are aesthetically different and are really nothing like my other leos , i did read an article on the scale thing but it does not cover all the subs plus what if u have and afghan/fascio cross... what to do?? I wanted to get some fascios as well but got scared once i heard there were people selling them as such but they were either crosses or not sub at all, i stuck to the afghans cause they are visibly different and they have such a great demeanour. Mind u i have never seen or heard a fascio but 2 of my afghans screamed like i have never heard b4 from a leo, if fascios are worse....sheesh!!!!

i have snow afghan/fascio cross but i know they are that. these guys are much different. they take after the afghanicus in size however i will sell them as what they are. i do plan on getting some pure afghanicus this next year.(hopefully soon ) if people truthfully sell animals as what they are there would be no problems.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

Why does that bother you???

Anyway, it is safe to assume that the huge majority of our captive leopard gecko stock are in fact hybrids or intergrades of most, if not all of the Eublipharid species and subspecies...

It bothers me because it shows us that we have incorrectly categorized the animals. By definition two different species can not produce offspring...



also; does anyone know if the ranges of montanus and fasciolatus overlap in the wild? I ask because i have seen pictures of wild caught animals labeled as one or the other respectively and see no noticeable difference.

 

[herpencounter]

By definition two different species can not produce offspring...

In some cases they can...

 

[Tony C]

In some cases they can...

Yep, and even species belonging to different genera in some cases.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

In some cases they can...

But by definition they can not (But who are we to define nature?). I know a classic example of non-sterile hybrids are king snakes to rat/corn snakes, but if these hybridization can occur in captivity then they likely occur in nature(as seen in polar bears and brown bears, though i hate to use a mammalian example here). I feel like science is in too much of a hurry to classify animals, especially reptiles. Our definitions dont work and many can not even agree on what constitutes a subspecies.

In my opinion the only macularius sub that is clearly separate from the others is E.m. afghanicus. I have 2 examples of E.m afghanicus myself and they are clearly different. They are also my favorite geckos.
Recently I tested my ideas on this by opening as many picture tabs of E.m. montanus, E.m. fasciolatus, and E.m. macularius as i could find. I found examples of montanus that ranged from animals that appeared axanthic to nearly all yellow, examples of fasciolatus that appeared more lavender with subdued yellows (as one would expect), but then examples of E.m. macularius that seemed in no way different from fasciolatus.

If these animals are being collected by location and not a clear difference in physical appearance then it seems likely that we really dont know what we are getting. It is more likely than not that there is some overlap in the subspecies ranges, meaning even the wild caught animals are not pure examples of one thing or another, but rather examples of nature doing its own thing.

 

[herpencounter]

Yep, and even species belonging to different genera in some cases.

Mhmm. In most cases it works like this. Species A is bred to species B you produces hybrid AB. AB cannot breed to AB but Can breed to A and B. Or they never reach sexual maturity (like in male Ligers).

 

[Wandering Paddle]

Yep, and even species belonging to different genera in some cases.

The difference in this case is that the offspring are sterile. If the offspring are sterile then something on a genetic level is wrong.

 

[herpencounter]

But by definition they can not (But who are we to define nature?). I know a classic example of non-sterile hybrids are king snakes to rat/corn snakes,

But can the hybrid breed to the hybrid? Or can it only breed to one or the other (kind or corn)?

 

[Wandering Paddle]

I really have no idea. i dont breed snakes or deal with corns or kings (only native rat snakes when i go herping). i did a little research and have found that the king x corn hybrids can breed with other hybrids and corns. I also found someone claiming that the hybrids could breed with the kings but the post was very old and i couldnt find offspring outcomes to verify the claim...

 

[herpencounter]

I really have no idea. i dont breed snakes or deal with corns or kings (only native rat snakes when i go herping). i did a little research and have found that the king x corn hybrids can breed with other hybrids and corns. I also found someone claiming that the hybrids could breed with the kings but the post was very old and i couldnt find offspring outcomes to verify the claim...

Hmm...

 

[ang3l3s]

I heard there are only males and they can be bred to either or and not to another hybrid for obvious reasons.

 

[ang3l3s]

i have snow afghan/fascio cross but i know they are that. these guys are much different. they take after the afghanicus in size however i will sell them as what they are. i do plan on getting some pure afghanicus this next year.(hopefully soon ) if people truthfully sell animals as what they are there would be no problems.

yeah, that cross is different for sure but i wonder will the sub thing become like the rhacs as non-pure locales are worth less compared to pure locales in leachies .
How is that cross vocal wise???

 

[robin]

as far as leopard gecko. i do not think crossing sub species will lessen the value, especially when used to strengthen existing lines and morphs.