Stinger

[OhioGecko]

Well Thad, explain how it makes sense for me to see those results?

David, again....... did you ask either Jeff when you seen them? You keep dismissing my results of breeding a super to normals and getting no zeros or stingers. Any explanation on that?

After you read JMG's update this weekend it will hopefully make sense to you.

 

[OhioGecko]

Look at it from our point of view, I have been talking with David about this in depth. I have heard and seen the proof showing it's a co-dom gene. All I have heard from you is Jeff said this and that without any justification. If you could explain it and have it make sense maybe we would all jump ship to your side, but I don't see how given the current circumstances. It just doesn't make sense. I guess we will all be anxiously awaiting Jeffs reply. You've been saying he was going to change it for quite sometime now...

I hope it is true, a super recessive would be some big news for reptile keepers across the board!

Read this thread: http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=86711

I have some of my breeding results listed in it. If you breed a homozygous co-dom to a normal you will get all hetrozygous co-dom triats. We didn't get any! That right there proves the trait is not co-dom.

 

[Imperial Geckos]

Read this thread: http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=86711

I have some of my breeding results listed in it. If you breed a homozygous co-dom to a normal you will get all hetrozygous co-dom triats. We didn't get any! That right there proves the trait is not co-dom.

When JMG first bred the Zero to normals, they either got Zeros or they didn't. Since they apparently produced Zeros from that those breeding first generation, they considered it at the very least Dominant...When they bred Zero x Zero later they produced a Super Zero...leading it to be Co-dom... How can it go from being considered Co-dom to Recessive?

Hopefully JMG's morph update will answer this question.

 

[OhioGecko]

When JMG first bred the Zero to normals, they either got Zeros or didn't, since they did apparently produced Zeros from that, they considered it at the very least Dominant...When they bred Zero x Zero later they produced a Super Zero...leading it to be Co-dom... How can it go from being considered Co-dom to Recessive?

Alex, you will have to wait for their update

 

[OhioGecko]

Agreed, The "patternless" form would be recessive with the Hets having substantial markers. And other hets not having markers at all.

:main_thumbsup:

 

[Wild West Reptile]

When JMG first bred the Zero to normals, they either got Zeros or they didn't. Since they apparently produced Zeros from that those breeding first generation, they considered it at the very least Dominant...When they bred Zero x Zero later they produced a Super Zero...leading it to be Co-dom... How can it go from being considered Co-dom to Recessive?

Hopefully JMG's morph update will answer this question.

Its magic! Or it's brand new, never discovered genetics.

 

[Imperial Geckos]

I'm listing this post to debunk that only dark AFT's as stinger/zero siblings. Even naysayers that say they are dark will be able to pick out the hets from light colored AFT's.

Let's see who can get them all correct, if you do, you have passed the "Monkey Test" . Just reply in this thread and list 1-21 with what you think they are.

HINT: The only genetics in following 21 AFT's are normal, zero, stinger and white out.

Ill take a crack at it, even though I didn't claim a monkey can do it... I'll take my best shot...

#1 Stinger Sib
#2 Zero Sib
#3-4 unsure
#5 Stinger
#6 Stinger Sib
#7-9 Normal
#10 Stinger Sib
#11-13 Normal
#14 Whiteout
#15 Normal
#16 Zero Sib
#17 Stinger Sib
#18 Whiteout Zero
#19 Normal
#20 Whiteout (maybe stinger sib?? Strange back band pattern)
#21 Whiteout Stinger

 

[OhioGecko]

Alex, I will let you know how you did after David posts

 

[EverEvolvingExotics]

This is my brain , this is my brain on fat tail genes :bomb:

 

[EverEvolvingExotics]

Read this thread: http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=86711

I have some of my breeding results listed in it. If you breed a homozygous co-dom to a normal you will get all hetrozygous co-dom triats. We didn't get any! That right there proves the trait is not co-dom.

I read through the entire post when it was made. Reading through it again I can see why everyone is pulling out their hair to make sense of it. Looking back through it and reading through specialtyreptile's posts today it's becoming more and more clear.

The verbiage is so jacked up it's not even funny. By stating that it was a super stinger whiteout to begin with everyone’s mind went directly to thinking it was a co-dominant trait. Then you slipped in the het terms and everyone went bonkers. I'm just going to need to wait until Jeff's piece comes out so it will be clear and concise.

If what we know today as super stingers are actually homozygous and what we know as zeros and stingers are actually just incredibly apparent visible hets I can buy it. IF and IF is the big factor there are no other “super recessive” forms. I really couldn't wrap my head around it before because of all the super talk, which is still happening from your end.

This just doesn't make any sense. Here is your Kingsnake ad so people can see what I'm talking about: http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=109&de=925075

We will just talk about Zeros to keep it somewhat simple. You have for sale a whiteout het zero and multiple zeros, but you still state that there is ANOTHER homozygous form on top of it all that is patternless which we know as a super zero. :main_huh:

I'm so confused...

 

[OhioGecko]

I read through the entire post when it was made. Reading through it again I can see why everyone is pulling out their hair to make sense of it. Looking back through it and reading through specialtyreptile's posts today it's becoming more and more clear.

The verbiage is so jacked up it's not even funny. By stating that it was a super stinger whiteout to begin with everyone’s mind went directly to thinking it was a co-dominant trait. Then you slipped in the het terms and everyone went bonkers. I'm just going to need to wait until Jeff's piece comes out so it will be clear and concise.

If what we know today as super stingers are actually homozygous and what we know as zeros and stingers are actually just incredibly apparent visible hets I can buy it. IF and IF is the big factor there are no other “super recessive” forms. I really couldn't wrap my head around it before because of all the super talk, which is still happening from your end.

This just doesn't make any sense. Here is your Kingsnake ad so people can see what I'm talking about: http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=109&de=925075

We will just talk about Zeros to keep it somewhat simple. You have for sale a whiteout het zero and multiple zeros, but you still state that there is ANOTHER homozygous form on top of it all that is patternless which we know as a super zero. :main_huh:

I'm so confused...

Lee, I understand the confusion. As far as the super term and the morph names, I'm going by what they were already called. So you will continue to hear "Super" because that is what they are called.

I'm going to let JMG release their findings on the zero/stinger morph. The last time I tried to explain it people started cutting and pasting content from JMG's website that had their initial breeding results. JMG has done more breeding with the Zeros/Stingers than anyone else and Jeff Jr. is one of the best at explaining genetics. After the release I will answer any questions I can, or about my breeding results with the project. This is an amazing morph that I personally think will be one of the most popular AFT combo morphs in the next couple of years.

 

[OhioGecko]

Maybe because I was vending?

You stopped and talked to me..... and oh ya...... you stopped at JMG's table and looked at what they had. You were standing right in front of them, all you had to do was ask.

????????????????????

I'm still waiting on you to take the "Monkey Test"

 

[OhioGecko]

That's what Thad's telling people though! If it was line bred all the offspring would inherit some type of degree of the pattern. I can pick a Zero sib out like it's nobodys business. Zero sibs are visually different, and that's why it's co-dom. Zero sibs are aberrant very dark animals. Every single one of them.

Zero by Zero Sib ( a dark Aberrant animal that carries the gene)

A monkey could pick one out. They're super dark, almost patternless.

Come on David, I'm poking you here. Let's see if you can back up your words. Take the "Monkey Test" :main_laugh:

 

[sickygnar89]

Looks like we got a good debate going on here ;p well I'm interested in what JMG has to say this weekend as I'm sure everybody is. Thanks for all the replies so far in trying to help.

 

[EverEvolvingExotics]

I hope along with the update they change the names that are associated with the morph. The current patternless version is called a super stinger/zero. When they change them to be a recessive morph keeping the super name will just be confusing. There are het stingers/zero (normal looking), stingers/zeros (variable yet visable het markers), and super stingers/zeros (patternless). Genetically speaking that isn't possible. The first two will need to combined to state that they are both hets and can vary greatly in appearance and the patternless is the homozygous form. Hopefully this gets cleared up by the weekend!

Thanks for asking the question, it turned out to be quite the thread haha.

 

[JMGreptile]

Genetics info released

The update on Super zero / Super stinger genetics should be posted on our morph update page now. Please go check it out.

 

[OhioGecko]

http://jmgreptile.com/morphupdates.html

 

[Carinata]

If I understand this correctly, the typical Zero/Stinger is a co-dominant, and the Super Zero/Stinger, is actually a recessive. So there are actually two separate genes at work in this complex. This is beginning to make some sense. Are all Zeros het for Super Zero? I would guess not since the Super Zero is actually a recessive. Does that make all Zeros and Stingers on the market 50% possible het Super Zero or Stinger, unless one of their parents were a Super Zero/Stinger. So for instance, I bred Zero X Whiteout Zero this season. I produced the following so far;

3 Whiteout Zeros 50% possible het Super Zero

1 Whiteout 50% possible het Super Zero

1 Zero 50% possible het Super Zero


If there are actually 2 different genes at work in this complex, is it possible to completely separate the Zero from the Super Zero and vice versa? If it is possible and you have done this, do the 2 gene react differently when bred to a Hidden Gene? Also, if you separated the Zero from the Super Zero, is it possible to actually make a true Super Zero if the Zero gene is actually co-dominant? If I breed a Zero to a Patternless, will I produce a Super Zero/Patternless? Or do I have to breed a Super Zero to a Patternless to get Patternless animals? Can you show us a picture of a Super Stinger, a Super Zero, and a typical Patternless so we can compare the differences? If I breed Super Zero to Patternless, will the offspring be visibly different?

How many lines of Zero/Stinger are you working with? The Stinger from Urban Gecko/Craig Stewart looks radically different than the Stinger you’re working with at JMG. Are the lines separate and are they compatible? As far as Zero Siblings go, are those dark Zero siblings a visually het for the Super Zero or just a very low grade Zero? How does Hidden Gene come into all of this? Is that gene a completely separate gene that will react with all morphs or is it something that also lies very close to the Zero/Super Zero? I know I’m asking a lot of questions, but this does change how this morph works.

Now bouncing to Whiteouts, are all Zero Whiteouts those low grade ugly looking animals, or is the Whiteout adopting that dark look from the Zero sibling? If the TUG and JMG line are different it would make sense, because TUG has Whiteout Zeros that look like what I would expect from a true Whiteout Zero. All of the Whiteout Zero’s I have produced are very dark animals with semi-elongated bands that don’t connect.

Lastly I want to thank JMG for coming forward with this information. I know you guys have been crazy busy and I know that it’s not easy running a business with as many animals as you guys have. The gene actually will be more interesting to play with now and I have no doubt it will be a very interesting gene to plug into other morphs.

 

[specialtyreptile]

http://jmgreptile.com/morphupdates.html

SO, If I am not mistaken;

Super Zero/Stinger = Zero Line Patternless (Recessive)

Het Super Zero/Stinger = Visual or non-visual Zero/Stinger(gene carrier/Heterozygote)

Zero/Stinger = independant trait that can or cannot be connected to the HET Zero line patternless... Works in a dominant fashion as it does not have a True super form known...

Het Zero/Stinger = Does not exist....

Zero line patternless x patternless = patternless

Het Zero line patternless x Het Patternless = 25% Patternless, 50% Het Patternless, 25% normal... All of which may or maynot have the Zero/Stinger trait attached....

 

[EverEvolvingExotics]

I really appreciate the update on the JMG website but a lot of questions still need to be answered. Maybe at this point nobody knows all the answers, either way this is one exciting morph that I'm incredibly excited to work with. I cannot wait to get my group of zero projects this fall. Hopefully the fat tail community can work together to truly figure out what's actually going on with these guys in the following years. I look forward to everyone's thoughts on the subject.