Super Stinger White Out

[Robyn@SYR]

Not familiar with these at all. Very interesting looking.

 

[OhioGecko]

The one on top looks very Stinger-ish. I would say the bottom one is a poor example of a Whiteout Zero, but one none the less.

I'm not sure about that, if it is... it is the only one out of around 20 babies from last season that is a stinger or zero. I believe you are seeing more of a het marker, similiar to the patternless het marker on AFT's. The super zero is breeding to the same 5 females he breed last year so hopefully I will gain more insight this year. Eggs will be hatching from the original group any day, I will keep you posted.

 

[OhioGecko]

Here’s how I think Zeros/Stingers work. Zeros and Stingers are essentially the same morph with Zeros having the added Stripe. Of course there is a Patternless Super Forms, with both the animals. I believe there are 2 lines of Zero and Stinger, I’ve talked to Urban and they’re line has never been bred with JMGs line. Urban Stingers are much different looking than JMG Stingers. I believe those 2 lines are different mutations, but closely resemble each other (like a Lesser and Mojave Ball Python).
Now as far as the Zero/Stinger complex acting as a recessive, I doubt that’s what’s going on. What I think is going on is, the Zero and Stinger siblings that are exceptionally dark, but have a normal pattern, are in fact Zeros or Stingers, but they look normal so one would think it was acting as a recessive mutation, but in reality it’s acting as an extremely variably co-dominant mutation.
As far as Patternless go, I’ve seen a lot of Zeros het Patternless (in fact I had one at one point), and as I learned more and more about that particular pairing I found that Zeros het Patternless are a lot more common than once thought, and some of the Zeros/Stingers het Patternless that were being hatched were not Zeros/Stingers, but were in fact non-genetic Aberrants het Patternless (they got the funky Aberrant trait from the Het. Patternless). I’ve been told that Zero/Stinger and Patternless are compatible, but I’ve seen Zeros het Patternless which would be like making a Butter Lesser Ball Python, you wouldn’t make Lesser Butters, you would make a BEL. So somewhere there’s a disconnect, as to whether or not Zeros/Stingers and Patternless are compatible. One theory I’ve sort of thought up was, when Patternless first were imported, maybe some weren’t Patternless? Maybe some were Super Stingers and Super Zeros? Then those Patternless and those Super Zeros/Stingers, were bred together and the genes piggy backed, sort of like the Granite in the Hidden Gene Woma Ball Python. Now it’s hard to separate the two and even harder to figure out what are Zeros/Stingers.
As far as Zeros go in Whiteouts, it’s very subtle. Whiteout Zeros are often very muddy and browned out. So your Whiteout “het” Stinger may be an actual Whiteout Stinger. This gene is over all very difficult to read and figure out, but hopefully with some time and trial breedings, we’ll have it figured out!

Very well put David :main_thumbsup:

 

[Carinata]

Thad, will you be at Hamburg this weekend? I’ll be at the Outback Reptiles table if you want to chat?
Anyway, I’m not accusing anyone of anything; I’m simply going to throw this out there. When the original Patternless came in we didn’t know if they were the recessive Patternless, or Super Zeros/Stingers. So is it possible, that we have jumbled these lines up and now Patternless are throwing non-genetic Zero/Stinger type animals that are het for Patternless, but are really not genetic Zeros/Stingers? The only way we can figure this out is new bloodlines of Zero/Stinger (which I do have), and hopefully we can separate these genes. I know a lot of people who have thrown Zeros from Patternless pairings. I think the lines are so damn mixed up, we don’t know what’s going on!

 

[Lecko my Gecko]

david I agree that its a big jumble LOL I personally think they are all related and the zero stinger and battnans are all markers for patty and some blood lines may be stronger causing them to act as a co dom gene, but dont think we will ever truly know LOL

 

[OhioGecko]

Thad, will you be at Hamburg this weekend? I’ll be at the Outback Reptiles table if you want to chat?
Anyway, I’m not accusing anyone of anything; I’m simply going to throw this out there. When the original Patternless came in we didn’t know if they were the recessive Patternless, or Super Zeros/Stingers. So is it possible, that we have jumbled these lines up and now Patternless are throwing non-genetic Zero/Stinger type animals that are het for Patternless, but are really not genetic Zeros/Stingers? The only way we can figure this out is new bloodlines of Zero/Stinger (which I do have), and hopefully we can separate these genes. I know a lot of people who have thrown Zeros from Patternless pairings. I think the lines are so damn mixed up, we don’t know what’s going on!

Yes I will be at Hamburg this weekend, but I will hopefully be working my own table I will try to catch you before or after the show ends. I believe that the patternless and zero/stinger lines were intentionally crossed to prove whether they were related or not. They have been proven to be compatible but they are different! You cannot produce zero/stingers from patternless and you cannot produce the hidden gene from patternless. I know my females did not have patternless or zero/stinger in them to start so my results have been very consistent.

 

[Gregg M]

Huge congrats Thad. Its cool to do a worlds first, aint it?

 

[Carinata]

Yes I will be at Hamburg this weekend, but I will hopefully be working my own table I will try to catch you before or after the show ends. I believe that the patternless and zero/stinger lines were intentionally crossed to prove whether they were related or not. They have been proven to be compatible but they are different! You cannot produce zero/stingers from patternless and you cannot produce the hidden gene from patternless. I know my females did not have patternless or zero/stinger in them to start so my results have been very consistent.

If you can't produce Zero/Stingers from a Patternless, why are a lot of people producing them? Do you mean a genetic Zero/Stinger? Or just the Pattern? Where does Hidden Gene come into play. I assume it's allelic with Zeros and Stingers.

 

[OhioGecko]

Huge congrats Thad. Its cool to do a worlds first, aint it?

Thanks Greg , It sure does!

 

[OhioGecko]

If you can't produce Zero/Stingers from a Patternless, why are a lot of people producing them? Do you mean a genetic Zero/Stinger? Or just the Pattern? Where does Hidden Gene come into play. I assume it's allelic with Zeros and Stingers.

Who is a lot? If there has been I would like to see pics and then know where they purchased their breeders from with genetics. It is possible some people got hold of the patty/stinger/zero from test breeding. I also find it interesting that no zeros or stingers were ever hatched before from patternless and know people think they are the same and they can hatch them from patternless. Come on..... where were they before? Please answer that!

 

[Carinata]

Pat Kline pops to mind. I know there have been others (Mike Rekowski maybe?). Patternless were imported before Zero and Stingers. But those Patternless may have been Super Zero/Stingers. In my opinion, we've muddied up the lines and now we can't figure it out. See they were in Africa, and when they got here, people thought they were Patties, BUT they were Super Zeros/Stingers, they bred them to Het Patties or Patties and since they're compatible (as some claim), the lines got jumbled.

 

[OhioGecko]

Do they have pics??? I would be really interested in seeing them. Pat also had Amel het patties, what happened to them? We have never seen a Stinger or Zero before JMG introduced them. How could they have been here before? Where are the pics?

 

[Carinata]

I have a picture because I owned it..... Pats Amel het Patty I don't have the full story on. JMG introduced them after they came out of Africa.

 

[OhioGecko]

David, where did you get your geckos from? Did you pick up some of the patternless/zero from JMG? They are both recessive genes and they are compatible, but you will never get a zero or super zero from pure patternless.

 

[Carinata]

I got a Zero het Patternless Male from Pat Kline. I'm not sure where he got the parents. Mike Rekowski also has Zero het Patternless animals right now. If it's recessive how come JMG hasn't said "Hey, they're recessive."?

 

[OhioGecko]

The Jeffs' from JMG has been telling customers for over year that the trait is recessive.

So let me get this straight, you knew your AFT's were zero het patternless? So you do know the zero/stinger is seperate than the patternless, and you would of not of hatched any zeros or stingers without the zero/stinger genetics in them. You did not get a zero/stinger from patternless like you initially described. I don't understand?

 

[Imperial Geckos]

The Jeffs' from JMG has been telling customers for over year that the trait is recessive.

Don't you mean the Super form (Super Zero/Stinger) is recessive?

 

[OhioGecko]

Don't you mean the Super form (Super Zero/Stinger) is recessive?

I'm not really sure how to explain the Supers. Here is what I know from our breeding.

1st year
Super Zero x 5 females = no zeros or stingers but few have batman markers (similiar to patternless)
**some of these may have been low quality zeros or supers but not where I would feel comfortable calling them that.

2nd year
Super Zero x offspring = 6 supers and 6 zeros
**I have over 40 eggs in the incubator with these pairings. I will post them as they hatch.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Wow....talk about a mumble jumble! Stingers, Zeros, super Zingers, whatever they are, I think I'll stick to producing morphs I can identify 100%! Ghosts, Zulus, caramels, true patternless and Whiteouts! I'll leave this mess to you guys! Lol! Good luck this season everyone!

On a side note, as I discussed with David many times, and he and several others will agree that when you cross the zeros/stingers with a whiteout they brown out so much that they're actually ugly. But that's simply my opinion.

 

[Carinata]

Ok, so on JMGs AFT care sheet they list Zero as Co-dominant.
http://jmgreptile.com/fattailcare.html
On 2/21/2009 They say they've proven a super form
http://jmgreptile.com/morpharchives002.html

The thing about Zeros is, sometimes you get true Zeros from Zero to Normal or Zero to Zero/Super Zero pairing. Sometimes you get very dark animals often labeled as Zero Siblings that are in fact Zeros. From what we can gather Zero Sibs usually won't make nice Zeros. So one could say, that yes Zero occasionally acts as a recessive type trait. When it is really a co-dominant. Like I said, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I want to get the facts sorted out

Now my good friend Alex Estrada (Imperial Geckos), bred Whiteout X Zero a few years go and got several Whiteouts. Most all of them are very dark, ugly Whiteouts, and those are the ones that are Whiteout Zeros. That's what Jeff told Alex.

I talked to Pat, and he confirmed he popped a Zero out of a Patternless clutch.