The ugly truth about the Leo market...........grrrrr(rant)

[wilomn]

Even if you are a hobbist with a smaller collection it still costs money to keep up your hobby. So to some degree whether you are a business or a hobbist it doesnt matter you would still enjoy having your costs break even. Im sorry i did not know you have been in the business for decadeds i do not know your name and have no clue who you are. So how could i possible know you vast knowledge on the subject, when i have never heard of you???

My guess is that your ASSumptions about me were not the first of yours to turn out erroneous.

Perhaps it's difference of definitions. While it is "nice" to cover costs for you hobby, you are not a hobbiest. Correct? If you are not a hobbiest then you are a business. Correct? If you are a business, then bitching about competition is much akin to whizzing into the wind; while part of you is relieved a larger part must now deal with the consequences your actions, ie becoming a business in need of income to support what was once but is no longer a hobby.

You can't have it both ways.

A hobbiest will not be concerned with market values because he is not in it for the money.

I wonder if there are any true hobbiests out there.

 

[snared99]

LOL Dude you are a riot!!

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

If you can buy animals at $15-$50 and produce high end morphs, that defeats the market. Multiply that by 5000 and you have the current state of the market.

Right on, Paul! :main_thumbsup: I was gonna do the math for a RAPTOr and Enigma het RAPTOr pair, then the $20-a-pop Nova, but you guys know the breakdown just as good as I do. No need going into detail.

 

[paulnj]

Bro, my $20 Nova has never bred and won't......

The ones I made piss on it!!!!!

 

[snared99]

Right on, Paul! :main_thumbsup: I was gonna do the math for a RAPTOr and Enigma het RAPTOr pair, then the $20-a-pop Nova, but you guys know the breakdown just as good as I do. No need going into detail.

You know maurice, unless you are a BUSINESS man the money doesnt matter. You should love and cuddle your leos>>lol

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

You know maurice, unless you are a BUSINESS man the money doesnt matter. You should love and cuddle your leos>>lol

LOL...With the relatively small amount of leos I have, I consider myself a hobby breeder. None the less, I still want to sell some hatchlings. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and piss on the people that do! :main_laugh:

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Bro, my $20 Nova has never bred and won't......

The ones I made piss on it!!!!!

Would somebody get that $20 Nova a shower and a towel? :main_laugh:

 

[DarthGekko]

Hey Pat, I think I misunderstood your initial post. Having read through your posts here, it looks to me like our opinions on this topic aren't so different after all. And having gone back and looked when I started a similar thread in the Ethics section, I never once mentioned the economy as some sort of excuse for why this is happening.

That being said, I think economy has nothing to do with this behavior, and someone wanting to earn a quick buck mass producing geckos and selling them at cut-throat prices has everything to do with the problem. And I agree that those who follow these practices probably won't be around long.

The economy has everything to do with it Maurice. The businesses that are selling them at cut-throat prices are doing so because they cant move their product at previous price points because the demand has decreased. Their way of adapting is to "slash" prices to try to drive their business. In the end, if their profit margins are not sustainable they will go out of business. It's just a matter of what long term effect this will have on the leo market as a whole......

I have seen many "Good" family owned businesses crushed by recessions and this is no different whether it be Reptiles or Grocery stores etc.

Someone has to lose market share for someone else to gain market share.

What really sucks is that some of these new combo morphs may never reach their true intrinsic market value because of this "market crash".

 

[paulnj]

The economy was shit last year...... This years issue is OVER PRODUCTION.

 

[snared99]

The economy was shit last year...... This years issue is OVER PRODUCTION.

Exactly my point!:main_thumbsup:

 

[DarthGekko]

The economy was shit last year...... This years issue is OVER PRODUCTION.

I agree Paul. Also, the economy just started to go to shit last year. We are in the real shit right now. That coupled with over production will keep prices down for awhile. On the bright side, HR669 was defeated by the largest letter writing campaign in the last 30 years on Capitol Hill. More and more people are getting into reptiles as pets/hobby/business so things may turn around once the economy is in a sustained recovery.

 

[DarthGekko]

This is a question for the senior breeders.

Is it possible that the vast amount of variety in Leo morphs has diluted the demand for other morphs? I mean, there has been a morph explosion in the last few years so does anyone consider that the variety of morphs may kill demand for newer morphs? Just curious......

 

[paulnj]

Nathan , I am just a guy who does treework for a living with a high school education, but am by far not a dummy

I worked 5- 6 days a week and 10-13 hours days up until 2 winters ago. I was laid off on thanksgiving 07 and returned to work may 1st 08 . I had work 2 -3 days a week from a landscaper that winter if I wanted it. August 08 we laid off 4 guys of the 13 who worked with us. I got laid off late january and was working 4 day weeks the last 6 weeks.

Sorry, but the economy took a shit 2 years ago , but it took a year for it to trickle down to the vast majority.

So, the fact that my company has been in business 27 years and we keep on top of our game rules out a few factors. I used to get $5k retirement fund contrabutions yearly, 2500 christmas bonuses, raises yearly, bonuses monthly for production and 60-70 hr work weeks... all is gone and I am at 35-48 hour weeks and just got a raise after 3 years of no raises.

The jerkoffs who over produced 2 and 3 years in a row had a major part in the down swing of the market if you ask me. I only have 10 fingers, so do not have enough fingers to point.. and won't. Over production is different for every individual. While 500 may be a breeze to move for some people, 100 could be over production for another.

 

[DarthGekko]

Paul,

Point taken. I didn't mean to sound insensitive bro This whole thing sucks and I wish it were over. Hopefully this is just a momentary downtick in the Leo market. With all the Leos being sold, maybe it will spark even more interest in the hobby and elevate new innovations in the Reptile industry. It's been really cool to see the industry grow and I think the best is yet to come......

Nathan , I am just a guy who does treework for a living with a high school education, but am by far not a dummy

I worked 5- 6 days a week and 10-13 hours days up until 2 winters ago. I was laid off on thanksgiving 07 and returned to work may 1st 08 . I had work 2 -3 days a week from a landscaper that winter if I wanted it. August 08 we laid off 4 guys of the 13 who worked with us. I got laid off late january and was working 4 day weeks the last 6 weeks.

Sorry, but the economy took a shit 2 years ago , but it took a year for it to trickle down to the vast majority.

So, the fact that my company has been in business 27 years and we keep on top of our game rules out a few factors. I used to get $5k retirement fund contrabutions yearly, 2500 christmas bonuses, raises yearly, bonuses monthly for production and 60-70 hr work weeks... all is gone and I am at 35-48 hour weeks and just got a raise after 3 years of no raises.

The jerkoffs who over produced 2 and 3 years in a row had a major part in the down swing of the market if you ask me. I only have 10 fingers, so do not have enough fingers to point.. and won't. Over production is different for every individual. While 500 may be a breeze to move for some people, 100 could be over production for another.

 

[paulnj]

I for one WANT TO make some $ to cover costs atleast and time invested. This economy has put a major dent in my income level and now my "get rich quick scheme..:main_laugh: " has failed

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Ok i'm going to play a little game called Devils Advocate.....if you don't like it then well i don't care.....

Could there really be an issue with people having issues with new people getting into the industry? When people talk about flooding the market are they really saying that too many people are breeding? I mean the days of producing 500 geckos might be over for some breeders only due to the fact there are more people out there.

I think that there is a lot of non finger pointing that is really pointing fingers at the newer kids on the block trying to get theirs while all the seasoned breeders are taking a hit because of the new kids.

Lets take me for example. I'm a highly intelligent person that has had a love for reptiles since he was 5 years old. I have never had the opportunity to really explore that love to do my family. But now that i'm older and i can afford it am i being grouped into the new kid on the block syndrome? I'm feeling as if that i don't pick sides on who my friends are that will negatively effect me and what i'm going to do.

 

[wilomn]

Ok i'm going to play a little game called Devils Advocate.....if you don't like it then well i don't care.....

Could there really be an issue with people having issues with new people getting into the industry? When people talk about flooding the market are they really saying that too many people are breeding? I mean the days of producing 500 geckos might be over for some breeders only due to the fact there are more people out there.

I think that there is a lot of non finger pointing that is really pointing fingers at the newer kids on the block trying to get theirs while all the seasoned breeders are taking a hit because of the new kids.

Lets take me for example. I'm a highly intelligent person that has had a love for reptiles since he was 5 years old. I have never had the opportunity to really explore that love to do my family. But now that i'm older and i can afford it am i being grouped into the new kid on the block syndrome? I'm feeling as if that i don't pick sides on who my friends are that will negatively effect me and what i'm going to do.

Are you a carpenter? If not, give it some thought. You hit the nail hard and striaght and right on the head.

It's about the money not being made because of competition created by those complaining loudest.

They got theirs, liked it, want more, but don't want to compete with anyone doing it on a larger scale.

 

[KelliH]

Ok i'm going to play a little game called Devils Advocate.....if you don't like it then well i don't care.....

Could there really be an issue with people having issues with new people getting into the industry? When people talk about flooding the market are they really saying that too many people are breeding? I mean the days of producing 500 geckos might be over for some breeders only due to the fact there are more people out there.

I think that there is a lot of non finger pointing that is really pointing fingers at the newer kids on the block trying to get theirs while all the seasoned breeders are taking a hit because of the new kids.

Lets take me for example. I'm a highly intelligent person that has had a love for reptiles since he was 5 years old. I have never had the opportunity to really explore that love to do my family. But now that i'm older and i can afford it am i being grouped into the new kid on the block syndrome? I'm feeling as if that i don't pick sides on who my friends are that will negatively effect me and what i'm going to do.

The people I was referring to have been in the business for a few years now. I would not consider them newbies.

 

[KelliH]

Are you a carpenter? If not, give it some thought. You hit the nail hard and striaght and right on the head.

It's about the money not being made because of competition created by those complaining loudest.

They got theirs, liked it, want more, but don't want to compete with anyone doing it on a larger scale.

For me it's not that. For me it's not about competition. I think I've proven myself to be capable of that and I actually enjoy competition; I enjoy challenging myself. I feel that those that are flooding the market like they are basically forced to lower their prices to (IMO) obscenely low amounts because they have to do so in order to get rid of their babies. It's nothing but mass production and it's too much for the leo market to handle.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Kelli please don't think i was being a dick towards you or anything like that but those are feelings that i have been having for some time. maybe it's just insecurity or the fact that i just had to cut 5 of my BSB eggs open that didn't develop.