Tremper New Morphs?

[Thorgecko707]

I understand but nobody can come up with a picture of a sse that has a white face, white sides, white limbs, and white tail tip. And sse doesn't have green and red spots, it only has black, dark brown. And sse doesn't have 70% chance of paradox spot in a specific area with a specific shape. Even without the spot, if someone showed me the rest I could have more faith in that. Just saying it without proof doesn't justify anything. All I ask is for proof to all those statements calling galaxy a sse.

 

[lillith]

The "sun" paradox spot trait seems to have popped up independently in an Albey's line, (which is one of the oldest lines out there for many morphs: tangs, snows - including linebred, etc.)

Referencing the post by Kangas Kritters here:
http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=73013&page=9&highlight=galaxy

As you can see, the speckling effect comes from combining the super snow and the eclipse:
http://geckosetc.com/images/avail/Available Pictures/SUECM1_side_600.jpg

As for an eclipse with the white face, triplegex just posted one from Kelli, and it's het BELL:
http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=76794

The only other gecko I have seen that has that "bluespot"/"moon" has been marked sold:
http://www.leopardgecko.com/raptors-aptors-eclipse (first one up top)

And gee, it's an ECLIPSE.

So it seems most likely to me, that perhaps even if distantly related, the snow line with the "sun" paradox is related to the snow line from Albey's that Kangas Kritters posted, and by selectively breeding it for a few generations to the white faced eclipses, you'd get the sort of Super Snow Eclipse that comprises the Galaxy.

While that is a lot of hard work and selective breeding, it is NOT a new morph. The only "new trait" would be a reproducible paradox spot, if it is reliably reproducible. Which is cool, but does it qualify as a new "morph"? Dunno. I would call it a new combination, but not a new morph.

So...yeah. Grumble Mumble.

p.s. as far as the white feet, sides, and tail tip, there are plenty of "high-white" or "white-sided" geckos out there in many different morphs, but that trait alone is not considered a morph. It's a trait. I guess what I'm getting at is that TRAITS and MORPHS are not the same thing.

 

[Thorgecko707]

Lilith, that's some good debate right there. But if you look at how he is making combo morphs, why has nobody mentioned blizzard? That would give the ss spots a different color.

 

[lillith]

Thanks. From what I know, supersnow blizzards tend to not have spots? The blizzard takes over. I've never had blizzards or been terribly fascinated by them though, so they are not my strong point.

p.s. I just noticed #927 is a snow eclipse with hints of "blue spot"
http://www.leopardgecko.com/snows-supersnows (6th gecko down).

 

[Thorgecko707]

I'm just trying to figure out genetically how to get from eclipse with blue spot to total white face with no pigment. I do think it could be line bred sse and the paradox spot could be from massive inbreeding. But I can't figure out how to get the color of the spots.

 

[geckogirl3]

I'm just trying to figure out genetically how to get from eclipse with blue spot to total white face with no pigment. I do think it could be line bred sse and the paradox spot could be from massive inbreeding. But I can't figure out how to get the color of the spots.

blizzard maybe???

 

[Tony C]

I understand but nobody can come up with a picture of a sse that has a white face, white sides, white limbs, and white tail tip.

Apparently it wasn't enough that I typed it into google for you. On the first row of image results returned there are three that meet the description:

one

two

three

If you want to buy into the marketing hype go for it, but don't come back crying when the offspring sell for maybe 10% of what the parents cost.

 

[lillith]

@Morgan: I think it has more to do with the photography style, that last query.

 

[Thorgecko707]

Tony, I'd spend ten grand on it just to have as a pet.

 

[Tony C]

Tony, I'd spend ten grand on it just to have as a pet.

Cool, I have a few Abyssinians for you then.

 

[xanderville]

The first twp pics that Tony posted are perfect examples of the white spot on the head to the eyes, white limbs and white tail tip

 

[TokayKeeper]

thor...you might need this with that 10k.

 

[M_surinamensis]

As a sort of disclaimer to the rest of this post, I don't know the difference between most leopard gecko morphs and a hole in the ground. I understand how genetics work and what pigments do and how reptile skin makes color... I could interpret information that is given to me by others when it comes to leo morphs but I'm almost completely disconnected from what they are, I don't know the names, I don't recognize them visually, I'm only aware in the most general senses as to who produced them first or in the greatest quantities. So take everything I say on the subject as coming from that context and perspective.

I haven't got an educated opinion about the validity of specific morphs, or names, or combinations; so I won't even try to form one.

I have got an educated opinion about the reptile market in general though, driven and dominated in recent years by morph production in many respects.

I think a large part of the skepticism that now greets the announcement of a new morph has to do with some of the ways that the morph market has been promoted and built. It was really driven, at its core, by the idea of looking at a limited pool of genetic material as being an in-demand commodity with the potential for exponential reproduction and a value as an investment. Yeah, people got into it because they happened to like the animals or they found some color mutation or another to be aesthetically striking, but the way animals were marketed and sold was (is) very much about production models and business. Get in fast on the next big thing and make a small fortune! Spend one thousand dollars on a blizzard today and make ten thousand next year! We produced it first! We produced it best! We're the brightest! We're the whitest! We're the biggest! We're the newest! Buy buy buy buy BUY BUY BUY!

The culture that grew around it was intensely informed by the commercial prospects. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, most people aspire to make a living doing something they love and we are a capitalist society. It wasn't always as it was represented as being though. In any society there will be some dishonest people, so it was with the morph market. In any push for advancement, mistakes can be made and things can be misjudged, so it was with the morph market. The frenzy, the fevered rush to find the next big thing became so intense that any aberrant appearance was going to end up caught in the whirlwind of public interest. To be patented and marketed and labeled and advertised and sold at a significant markup over the cost of a plain old animal.

And at the same time as this, "designer morphs" were being created all over the place, combining multiple and sometimes overlapping deviations in color and pattern to create a ridiculous number of heterozygous animals and generally a lot of confusion.

Everything was being given some unique name, being hyped as the next thing, the new prospect, the best investment. Most of them... weren't. Not really. A lot of them were just examples of phenotypical elasticity, many more were a result of line breeding and were not clearly reproducible, some were even a result of environment and diet... a couple were outright frauds. Because of the potential profit involved, many of the origins were kept secret, projects were hidden until the revelation of their results, the process was obfuscated as a sort of trade secret, as tightly guarded as the list of KFC's eleven herbs and spices. All of which often got even muddier and less clear when the lines dropped to a price that the public found reasonable, since information was then filtered through the sometimes incomplete or inaccurate understanding of each person who was producing animals. Accurate labeling was (is) a nightmare. Identifying component genetics is often an impossibility.

The public has been burned. Largely unintentionally, but kind of constantly for the past fifteen years or so. So when someone (anyone) returns to that kind of marketing strategy* and announces the next big thing, which looks an awful lot like the last big thing, was developed behind the scenes using a secret technique and is going to be sold for thousands of dollars as a financial investment type of breeding project... they get a bit skeptical.


*or, to be fair, in the case of Ron Tremper, has not moved away from it. And it's clearly been good to him, so I can see why he wouldn't.

 

[fuzzylogix]

What morph does it look exactly like? That's all I want to know. Everybody is saying that but won't provide even a picture or link for proof.

well here is one of my males. that proof enough for you?

 

[Thorgecko707]

Tokay, that's what I need for sure.

Fuzzy, is that line bred? It's pretty close.

 

[KelliH]

Selective breeding does wonders!

 

[TokayKeeper]

Everything was being given some unique name, being hyped as the next thing, the new prospect, the best investment. Most of them... weren't. Not really. A lot of them were just examples of phenotypical elasticity, many more were a result of line breeding and were not clearly reproducible, some were even a result of environment and diet... a couple were outright frauds. Because of the potential profit involved, many of the origins were kept secret, projects were hidden until the revelation of their results, the process was obfuscated as a sort of trade secret, as tightly guarded as the list of KFC's eleven herbs and spices. All of which often got even muddier and less clear when the lines dropped to a price that the public found reasonable, since information was then filtered through the sometimes incomplete or inaccurate understanding of each person who was producing animals. Accurate labeling was (is) a nightmare. Identifying component genetics is often an impossibility.

The public has been burned. Largely unintentionally, but kind of constantly for the past fifteen years or so. So when someone (anyone) returns to that kind of marketing strategy* and announces the next big thing, which looks an awful lot like the last big thing, was developed behind the scenes using a secret technique and is going to be sold for thousands of dollars as a financial investment type of breeding project... they get a bit skeptical.


*or, to be fair, in the case of Ron Tremper, has not moved away from it. And it's clearly been good to him, so I can see why he wouldn't.

I fell for that in '99 at the price of $1000. She arrived pink and yellow in July 13, 1999 that year and was mailed back to the (re)originator by October (??) with a replacement after she turned brown while kept at 88-90°F and poorly ate crickets and mealies. I was warned by many of this darkening, but I couldn't afford 3k and 5k for a female or male Rainwater albino back then. The subsequent attached photos almost got me banned from kingsnake.com and did get ks.com and myself threatened with a lawsuit.

1st pic: her starting to darken up.
2nd pic: her at a local reptile expo next to a patternless and tangerine. Photo taken in shade outside
3rd pic: her with the tang
4th pic: her replacement, a tangerine albino
5th pic: comparison of replacement day (Oct 99) I got her and her by January 2000.
6th pic: replacement, and as Albey put it, the most ugly male I could buy after all the complaining I did about their darkness. Sadly, he was all I could afford.

You'll notice she looks thin and the male has what I call the "no hips, no butt" syndrome seen in women (his tail never got fat). He ate like a champ for me, but the replacement had to be hand fed mealies. She refused crickets (would later eat them by hand and even later would finally hunt them if I pulled the hind legs off) and refused mealies in a bowl. I kept her at 90°F, as with all my leos and that temp was controlled by a Helix DBS-1000.

Again, I was warned of their potential darkening, but I REALLY wanted to get an albino and work it into my collection. I was dead set on the Rainwater line after seeing "Max" the original Rainwater in Oct '98 at the New Mexico Reptile Expo in Albuquerque, NM. Tim (Rainwater) was actually disappointed that I mailed my original Tremper albino back as he wanted to get photos of her at the Oct '99 expo next to one of his albino. Lastly at least on this part of the post, the above "dark" albinos would later be dubbed chocolate albinos, Ron's attempt (IMO) of admitting the strains' true nature without saying they actually turn brown.

All this said, this posting IS NOT intended to be a bashing. It is meant to detail my experience into what Seamus talks about above. Never again will I spend over $500 for a leopard gecko, let alone $1000. One I do not have that kind of disposable income, 2 I got burnt (IMHO), and 3 I don't like to power feed my geckos; I tend to have my geckos adult size by their first birthday and breeding by their 2nd spring. I'd never recoupe funds. This is strictly a hobby for me, I have fun with it and enjoy the genetics of my collection. For these reasons alone, this is why I'll never jump feet first into any new crazed morph project again. I will never get burnt again. Unfortunately, I'm made out to be the bad guy in this example, back then and even presently. Back then I was merely a senior in high school too.

If this post of mine results in this turning into a mud slingingfest I WILL NOT reply. It's over, it's done with and I no longer, nor will I ever again have that strain of albino in my collection. I do however respect what this individual has done over his lifetime, though I don't completely agree with how he's gone about his marketing.

 

[Thorgecko707]

Tokay, I'm sorry to hear that. I too was burned in this hobby but only recently. I don't buy the most exspensive but I'm a heavy repeat customer. When we spend thousands, shouldn't we expect amazing customer service?

 

[Wowoklol]

Yeah, just to clarify, I never said this "morph" should be worth any amount of money above something of a similar phenotype(eclipse super snow). A yellow spot on the side isn't enough to get me to open my wallet. That's my only thing. I have trouble calling it a "paradox" spot if it is inheritable. So we Would be talking about a specific gene or combination of genes. Is that worth anything? That's up to the buyer I suppose. I don't think it will be to me.
Thanks for sharing your story Tokay. Thats a bummer

 

[mitchrobot]

Thorgecko707, on Kingsnake.com there was a guy selling SSEs last year that were pretty much what Tremper is calling the Galaxy. they were white nosed, white legged and white tail tipped, also, the spotting was little speckles, and some were a strange gray two-tone, very pretty animals, and IMO much more unique. but just SSEs, i think his name was Matt Oakley.
im sure if you contacted him he still may has some pics. IMO the galaxy isnt anything new