Ultra Bells...

[Jeremy Letkey]

Your asking for an easy answer, that answer is no. The morph already exists.

If you break it down using a car as an example.

You buy every single part that you need to build a new ford mustang. You build that car, is it something different or is it still a ford mustang?

You put your hard work into it, it means more to you than buying a new one but in the end it's still just a ford mustang.


For everyone that thinks that a new genetic mutation may just pop up for them, think about this.

There have been millions of leopard geckos produced in captivity over the years. We only have a handful of true genetic mutations. The odds of producing a unique and new genetic mutation are very small.

 

[Bert-N-Sheila]

I would never buy a Ford Mustang because it could never be rock and roll. I understand what you are saying, however, I guess I'll just wait until something comes out of this, if anything.

 

[eyelids]

Mike, don't try to push the issue onto me. I am quite certain that I am not the only one who takes issue with you saying that you have proven your theory. You made unfounded claims. Provide proof or drop the claims. It's that simple.

I'm not trying to push anything onto you Jeremy... I figured it must've rattled you a bit more than others since you took the time to question me to the point where I feel like I'm on trial (this is not the BOI)... I've already apologized and reiterated the reason for me posting this thread... Furthermore, I never said I had proved them out with 100% certainty...

This pretty much proved my theory

pretty much

adverb
to some degree; "we were pretty much lost when we met the forest ranger"

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

I will not be taking my defense any further... Please just let this thread die...

 

[SteveB]

There have been millions of leopard geckos produced in captivity over the years. We only have a handful of true genetic mutations. The odds of producing a unique and new genetic mutation are very small.

'

I don't know... Tremper has added quite a few new mutations lately, and he already was selling the 16 hets years ago...

 

[Zbiz]

WOW ppl get soo touchy... Hey man good luck on your project!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Michael, surely you must have known there would be controversy when you posted this thread? Although debates and disagreements are not a problem here at GF, I would like to remind everyone to keep this thread on a civil level. Potshots and taking things to a personal level will only result in this thread being locked.

Like everyone here, I think it would be the thrill of a lifetime to create a new leopard gecko morph! But unfortunately, realistically the odds are not in anyone's favor. With so many combination morphs coming out now, the difficult part will be to be able to determine if it is another 'combination' of already existing morphs, or truly something unique. At best, it would take at least 2 generations to prove it out if it was.

 

[marula]

... Please just let this thread die...

i can understand the motivation in your words when you has open this treat,and nobady here think that you has try to do something wrong..
like i said before i only think that you was really happy for A POSSIBILITY..
i haven't change my idea about you for that :main_thumbsup:
jeremy and other people simply do a correct information..nothing against you..

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Mike all I was trying to do is make sure that everyone understands the facts. I did not want anyone to be confused. There are a lot of people that are new to leopard geckos and the genetics behind them. We wouldn't want them to misunderstand you in any way, would we?

 

[eyelids]

Yes Marcia, I hesitated to post this thread because I knew how it could turnout... I was the kid that was burnt by the stove even though I knew it was hot! LOL!

Jeremy, I definitely understand... I was actually intending to post that I understand your position as a well known breeder to help limit confusion amongst the leo community... I wasn't sure if that's how you felt so I didn't post it...

 

[Wezul]

I suppose it is possible, but not very likely. Besides, if an Enigma popped out of Michael's Bells, it wouldn't be a 'new' morph.

I wasn't even thinking along the lines of a new morph(my brain would explode if I even tried :dizzy2: ), I BARLEY have grasp on LINE bred and recessive traits. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe the "same" morph in different form, sorry if this sounds stupid. Enigmas are-in their own right-a truly amazing morph and I see people breeding them with just about everything.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that maybe people who already have the geckos Bell sold in the past, have the 'genetics' for an Enigma.

I am not trying to "stir the pot" and definetly don't want to tick anybody off, this is by far THE BEST GECKO SITE EVER, and the people here are what makes it great! I think it is great when breeders share their 'new findings' with the community, regardless if the breeder is right or wrong (as I hear, it happens to even the most respected breeders from time to time).

Anyways, good luck with the next clutch Michael!

 

[cjreptiles]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that maybe people who already have the geckos Bell sold in the past, have the 'genetics' for an Enigma.

I'm afraid that there is no way this would be true. Since enigmas are dominant, only enigmas themsevles have any of the genes that code for "enigma".

 

[Wezul]

I'm afraid that there is no way this would be true. Since enigmas are dominant, only enigmas themsevles have any of the genes that code for "enigma".

Using that theory, wouldn't Bell have had to have an Enigma to produce the very first Enigma(s)? What I mean is, if Enigma is a genetic mutation, the first Engima ever hatched could not have looked like it's parent(s), but the
parent(s) carried the code for Enigma.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.

 

[Franks_Geckos]

I have seen some crazy things in Leopard Geckos the last few years, but I haven't seen anything (until now) as crazy as someone stating in so many words that they believed they hatched out something as exceptional as a Red Eye Enigma (a dead one no less) from what appear to be nothing more than rather average Bell Albinos. As much as I appreciate enthusiasm, let's get real here. I am sure there are at least a few breeders on this site that have some underground projects that are more proven than Mike's BSB (or Ultra Bells) that don't feel the need to keep the community at large updated on every hatchling until they can definitively prove something. With no disrespect intended towards Mike and his efforts, I will believe something when I see it. I have followed this project and remained silent wondering when something new or really cool was going to hatch out to make the hype worth it. To date, I just haven't seen anything other than some decent Bells. Mike, if you want this thread to just die, please stop trying to generate unnecessary hype for an existing morph that you haven't proven you have added anything new to! If you would have at least taken a picture, which I would have certainly done if I suspected I was onto something new, you wouldn't be taking it on the chin about this. I just wish that the breeders who have projects going that have some real potential to produce insane looking geckos and already have shown some clearly visible results (like Alberto and Kelli for example) would post more often with some awesome pics of the offspring of these projects.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Using that theory, wouldn't Bell have had to have an Enigma to produce the very first Enigma(s)? What I mean is, if Enigma is a genetic mutation, the first Engima ever hatched could not have looked like it's parent(s), but the
parent(s) carried the code for Enigma.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.

The first Enigma would have been a random mutation. It's like hitting the lottery. Anyone could do it at any time with any pair of geckos ... but you'll probably be hit by lightening first.

These "odd balls" do come up every now any then, but it doesn't always mean it's genetic. That's why tons of test breeding is done. You could produce a black gecko by accident, but you have to show you can make more than one to show the potential....otherwise you're left with one very rare (only one) black gecko with no chance of making more.

Look up "ringers" and piebald ball pythons. One is a random occurance that won't pass on, and the other is genetic. Ringers look cool, and are kind of similar to pieds in looks, but the money is in the pieds because you can make more than just the one.

 

[Sandra]

I've seen at least three cases of Bell albinos without Mack snow genes hatching with a very pale color, and I've heard of a lot more. Most of them die, and the ones that survive gain color and turn normal as they grow old. It seems to happen fairly often with Bell albino babies that hatch premature and weak.

Since you said that it looked like a blizzard and it died after hatching, I think this is most likely the case. Although both baby red eyed snow enigmas and the babies I'm talking about hatch with pattern. The pics I saw were here in this forum, you should take a look and compare them with the hatchling that died.

By the way, cool Bells

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I've seen at least three cases of Bell albinos without Mack snow genes hatching with a very pale color, and I've heard of a lot more. Most of them die, and the ones that survive gain color and turn normal as they grow older. It seems to happen fairly often with Bell albino babies that hatch premature and weak.

This is absolutely correct, Sandra.... and most likely the most plausible explanation of Mike's 'mystery morph' hatchling.

 

[Gregg M]

Here is what I have to say...

First I would like to congratulate Mikey boy on that stunning Bell albino with the awesomely colored eyes... The eyes in that thing alone are pretty amazing, nevermind the high contrasting colors...

Secondly, I cant help but to agree with Marcia, Jeremy (who sounds more and more like me the more I read this thread LOL), and Frank when it comes to jumpimg the gun on PROVEN genetics when all you had was one oddly colored animal that died out of the egg... There could have been numerous factors that went into causing lack of coloration....

On the same note, it could have been something new and hopefully it will show up in the next group of eggs...

Micheal, You are a cool dude and should be respected for what you do... You set your sights on something and it looks like it is going some place... I just do not think it is going the Enigma route... It is going it own way... But I have told you that from the start...

Anyway, I do enjoy looking at your photos and seeing what you produce... The are some of the nicest Bells I have ever seen...

When you work with something for so long, chances are good that something new will pop up and I truely feel you are on the right track Mike...

Good luck and keep the pics coming... I for one enjoy seeing what you have...

 

[KelliH]

I would never buy a Ford Mustang because it could never be rock and roll.

OK, that is just wrong!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Maybe the next new morph should be called the "Rock and Roll"!!!

 

[Emma318]

Maybe the next new morph should be called the "Rock and Roll"!!!

I'll take that challenge!

www.rockandrollgeckos.com? LOL.....it would be a cool name.... :main_yes: