Urgent Weight Problems!

[SC Geckos]

Yes, I think that there must be MBD genetically coming from the mothers side, so I will not be breeding with her again.

When you knew that the female that produced these babies was showing signs of MBD she should have never been bred in the first place. Any gecko that shows any signs of MBD should NEVER be bred. Its just asking for trouble.

I agree that she has suffered for quite a while, and during that time, I considered more than once getting her put down. Seems to me like I made the right decision not to, and no one can dispute that because they haven't seen her improve over the past 3 months. I think that saying she gas suffered for the whole 6 months is a bit harsh and insulting to me to be honest. If she had, she would most definitely have been put to sleep by now. Her bones have taken until about 2 weeks ago to get stronger. I have helped her with every shed, and feed, and she has been made as comfortable as physically possible. So I still object.

When I read your thread about this gecko, It seems like everything is about how you feel or your feelings instead of what is best for the animal. That being said, I understand that you care a great deal for this gecko which is great. (It really is) But sometimes you need to put your feelings aside. I just think that a gecko with multiple issues like this one has (deformed legs and jaw) will never have a good quality of life. Will it be possible for it to live... yes, but when it has to be fed by hand, help shed, has issues moving around, among other things, that is no way for an animal to live out its life. Is it??
Sometimes to help an animal that is very sick you need to end its suffering instead of prolonging it.
Good luck to you and you gecko.

 

[SC Geckos]

I'm still very new to leos but is it possible for MBD to be genetic in reptiles? I know there are certain bone diseases that are hereditary in humans but I've never come across genetic bone disorders in reptiles while researching leos. Or could it be that the mother wasn't given enough calcium during gestation for the babies to absorb?

I don't think it is actually genetic. If the mother has a vitamin or calcium deficiency she can't provide enough for the babies so they tend to have the same issues, but if the father has the same deficiencies and the mother is healthy the babies should hatch out healthy. I believe if it was genetic the father would be able to pass on these issues to the babies even with a healthy mother.

 

[9AC5]

The mother only once showed signs of mbd, and that was only the fact that she had thin legs. But her legs fattened up a few days after getting her, I think she was just malnourished. She has never since shown signs of MBD, and the father most definitely hasn't got mbd. The only reason I now suspect the mother to have mbd, is for the reason that such a large proportion of the offspring showed signs of mbd. I will never be breeding with her again as that would be irresponsible and cruel. I did not intend to bring Leos with problems into the world, it was simply an accident.

For the first time since the age of 2 months, she hunted this week, and managed to eat several small crickets without any help. She is due to shed in the next few days as well, and I think that she will manage to do it herself. As I have said, she is on the up and I don't want to take her life now, that would surely be cruel. For the first time in months she has independence, and the only time I feed her is to drop the calcium mixture on her nose so that she can continue to grow in strength. Believe me, if she still can't shed this week, then I will most certainly have her put down, as it would be cruel to keep her alive if she is reliant on me to live normally. However, I see nothing wrong with keeping her alive if she is steadily improving, and managing to do things of her own accord. She still has problems, I'm not denying that, but many keep their Leos alive when they go blind, what is the difference between blindness and slight deformation? Both bad disabilities, but at least mine can hunt! She has put on 2 grams since I started this thread, so I have no doubts that now she has finished putting all of her energy into bone repair, that she will begin to put it into growth.

I promise you all that I will be responsible, and yes, maybe at first my emotions kept her alive rather than what was best for her. But at the moment, from my perspective, (im the only one on here who sees her growing in strength day by day), the best thing for her is to have a shot at life. At the moment she is far less disabled than a Leo with enigma syndrome, yet people still breed enigmas! And let's put it into context, if a person was born with rickets, they wouldn't be put down would they, they would just be treated for it! Well my gecko is being treated, by me, and I will go to a vet because it is best for her, but none of you, and I mean none, can ever say that I have done wrong by her! Im sorry but if you were in exactly my position and could see her day by day improvements you would say the same.

can't wait to put pics up of her as a happy fully grown Leo.

 

[SC Geckos]

I am going to end my time on this thread so I hope everything works out with your gecko.

 

[9AC5]

So am I, I don't want to have anyone else try and find fault with what I've done.

 

[ImNotYogi]

I don't want you to think my post was attacking you in any way. Genetics is interesting to me and I'm still learning about leos, so it seemed like a question to ask, to me at least. If she's improving then I do think it'd be cruel to put her down. Best of luck to you.

 

[9AC5]

I didn't take offence to your post in any way, I don't have a clue if it can be genetic or not. But I know that she had easily enough calcium during gestation, and I couldn't have provided anymore for her, she also had plenty on the run-up to gestation as well, (she always has plenty of calcium, whatever the time of year). So it would seem odd that such a large proportion of the offspring showed signs of mbd, and some didn't, even though they all got the same treatment. They all had food dusted, and an extra dish of calcium in with them if they needed any more.

I too would like to know if mbd can be genetic, because if it can't, then I am very confused as to why such a high proportion of the hatchlings showed symptoms.

 

[9AC5]

And thank you. I'm glad you agree. She seems very chirpy today. Looking fatter, and she was wandering around the viv last time I looked

 

[katie_]

http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/reptilesgeneral/a/metabolicbd.htm
The research Ive done shows that disease is not black and white and there can be numerous factors. It seems to be more poor husbantry information, but I wouldnt rule out genetics. Its possible your hatchlings have problems motabilizing calcium, but if this is the case I dont know if they would show such improvement. Possibly your vet can give you more insight.

 

[9AC5]

Well, I won't rule out poor husbandry, but I have done everything possible. She is definitely improving, so I honestly don't know. I'll ask the vet.

 

[sausage]

I'm sorry to have to pipe in once again, I don't really want to get involved any more but the end product MBD is not genetic.
however other conditions that can result in MBD are, such as:
Kidney or liver disease/ damage.
Small intestine disease/ damage.
and thyroid problems.
each one of which can be transferred from the parents to the offspring. (part from damage obviously)

I'm sorry but this quote you made earlier really annoyed me.
"between blindness and slight deformation? Both bad disabilities, but at least mine can hunt! She has put on 2 grams since I started this thread, so I have no doubts that now she has finished putting all of her energy into bone repair, that she will begin to put it into growth."

Blindness is one thing but you can never compare looking after a blind animal with looking after an animal with MBD.
MBD is caused by the lack of calcium in the body, it dose not just make your bones deformed.

Every single tiny living cell in your body requires calcium to function every minute of every day that animal is alive, no different from humans.
Bone deformation isn't the half of it. if the body is lacking in calcium that it needs to remove calcium form the bone structures it is also removing it from internal organs!
MBD effects brain function, liver function, kidney function, intestine function, muscle contractions that includes the heart!, blood clotting......... I could carry on but I think you get the drift, every part of her body is affected!

Blindness and MBD are nothing alike!

 

[9AC5]

Ok then, thanks about the genetics information, its helped me a lot.

But if she is making improvements the surely she has started metabolising correctly, at which point the cells are all getting calcium, just not quite enough. At which point the problem does just become deformation. I have uvb tubes on their way, along with a regulator and socket.
Im obviously coming across as a really bad pet owner that should hand over all of my pets to the RSPCA so Ill just shut up.

 

[sausage]

Its not that your a bad pet owner as you clearly are taking the advice that people have been offering you, its just that some of your comments are extremely ignorant and this I believe is just from lack of information.

Im glad you took my advice on the lights just make sure its no higher then a 2% as said before as higher can damage their skin. leaving it on for no more then 3 hours a day for a couple of weeks should help the calcium metabolise better. then when shes improving more you can reduce it to every few days.
natural sunlight has the same effect to but thats a problem as it might be sunny but its not always hot enough to take them outside.

every one here just wants to help you that's all. the internet is full of information, granted not all of it correct but thats why youve joined a forum to check the information and to learn from other people triumphs and failures.

 

[9AC5]

Well, I don't intend to be ignorant, and I am certainly not an ignorant person, I'm obviously not coming across very well on this forum. So I'm sorry if what I've said has offended anyone.

The uvb lights are 2%, I checked to make sure. Although they also say less that 10% uva, but I couldn't find any that were lower than 10% uva (and I was looking at ones specifically for reptiles). Some of them were anything up to 30% uva. I know that the ones I ordered will be safe at less than 10%, but what is the difference if you get a 30% one?
Uv causes sunburn in humans, so if the uva is at that level could it be harmful to a leo?

Only reason I ask is because they live in the desert where uva concentration is very high.

 

[sausage]

The UVA shouldn't be a problem, UVA rays are less intense then the UVB rays.
the UVB is important for the reptile as it causes the body to release Vitamin B.
Without the Vitamin B calcium is not absorbed through the intestine, it just passes straight out again in the faeces.

Correct leos do come from deserts in places such as Afghanistan but they do spend the majority of their time underground in burrows, mainly coming out at dusk and dawn when its still warm but not as bright.
UV rays from the sun do still penetrate through the earth all the way through the burrows to the geckos inside them. their thin skin enables them to absorb a small amount of UV even when in hiding which is why you should only use a low UVB light as naturally they would only receive a low dose compared to lizards like bearded dragons that need to bask in direct sunlight for many hours a day.

Many people do still say that they don't require UVB in captivity but it has been scientifically proven that small amounts of UV offered in the vivs of leos significantly increases well being and fertility.

 

[9AC5]

Like I said, I've got one specifically designed for reptiles, and Leos to be more precise. I was just intrigued about the uva, because I knew it wasn't useful to them, but I didn't know if it would damage them (cause skin cancer etc).
I knew they lived in burrows underground naturally, I just thought that their uv exposure must still be fairly high. Oh well, you learn something new every day. The tube and equipment have been dispatched and I did express delivery, so hopefully it'll be here tomorrow, if not, the day after. Until then, praying for some warm weather so she can sit outside for an hour or so. But this is the UK, chances are more than just slim

 

[katie_]

Whens your vet appointment? Can they get in you this week?

 

[9AC5]

They said to ring back tomorrow to see if there's any cancellations, other than that its next Wednesday before I can get an appointment.
I said that she was very ill though and it was urgent so they gave me some advice until then. When I said it was advanced MBD, they said exactly what you have said, to use a uvb lamp for a few hours a day keep up with the calcium/baby food mixture and just wait for improvements. They said the appointment is held incase she shows no signs of improvement very rapidly.

 

[9AC5]

So now she has a death date if she doesn't improve. As much as I'm gutted, I'm sure you now believe I've done the right thing.

 

[sausage]

Nobody wants that to be the out come, but atleast the vet will be able to correctly diagnose a condition and offer you a plan.
fingers crossed that she improves quickly.