Venemoid snakes?

[Joel La Rocque]

I have been in the venom industry for over 40 years. There is not one day of my life that goes by that I don't have a venomous snake in my hands, that includes Christmas. I have seen some jobs done by butchers and some that were almost unnoticeable but the effects are the same! If you want a non venomous snake get a garter snake or a Boa. Venomous snakes are meant to be and stay venomous. To alter a snake for any reason is an act of cowardice and there is no excusing it. I have heard it all, there is the "I teach kids about snakes", I lecture on native wildlife", I rent the snake out for films", The list goes on but one thing is for sure, the person holding the snake is a coward and being that he never reveals the snake as being harmless he is a liar to boot. I am enclosing a few pictures two were taken in the wild, one in the Lab and the other at a removal call. All four snakes are as God made them and you can see the tools that I use to handle these terrible dangerous creatures. In 40 years I have 57 tags to my discredit and every tag was my fault. I would never think of altering one of these beautiful animals and any Vet. who does such an act should have his license shoved down his throat. If you cant work with an animal change your profession not the snake.

I am new to this site and I am not sure how the pictures come up. If you have to go the the site I built please be good enough to leave a message concerning Rattlesnake Roundups, I am trying to shut one in particular down. Thanks Joel La Rocque http://www.specializedvenoms.com There are a few other photos there but all reflect one thing, There is no need in altering any venomous animal, all it does is validate to others what they have suspected to be true about you all along. Handle a non venomous snake and let them wonder if you are a coward or not! Handle a venomoid and remove all doubt! "COWARD"!

 

[Joel La Rocque]

LIFE SPAN OF A VENOMOID

In 1998 we took in a Cape cobra that was a venomoid, the job had been done respectably and the snake appeared normal with its mouth shut. It struck at its food and when nothing happened it would chase it around and strike again and again and again. Snakes tire very easily and after about ten minutes of this the rat was removed and a frozen thawed rat was offered. It took it reluctantly and ate . The former owner was called and asked how he dealt with this problem and he said he placed the rat in a tank with a hot snake and after being bitten he tossed it into the venomoids tank. Sort of fooling the venomoid if you will! The Cape was six years old and had the surgery in its fifth year. From its size it was a healthy eater at one time but now it ate once a month at best. Its defecation was 75% less then before the surgery also. The snake was docile when handled and never offered to strike its care giver. We have cape cobras and when they arrived they are striking at everything. A long story short on December 07 2000 the snake was found dead in its tank. Failure to thrive was the vets diagnosis and the internal organs were by far smaller then they should have been. Is this proof? In a court of law it would be considered a coincidence and non admissible. I saw the snakes eyes on a daily basis, there was no fire, no pride, it was a lonely old tired snake at the age of eight when it passed away. I truly believe that a snake possesses a great amount of pride and it enjoys its power and its ability to defend itself. When something like this is stolen and the once powerful animal is reduced to a grass snake begging for a meal, it does not take an Einstein to see that its end is near. This is an arguable point of view but I saw the snake and it wanted to die. I can not speak for all venomous keepers but in private or in the Lab setting. I can tell you the dates on which each snake ate, the amount (weight) it ate, the amount of waste produced and its weight, the parasite content if any etc. A complete log is kept on each animal from the time of its arrival until its life's end. That is how we know the amount of food taken in and waste put out. The average life span for a male Cape Cobra (Naja nivea) is between fiftenn and twenty years the Female is about eighteen years +- 2yrs.

 

[herpencounter]

If you cant work with an animal change your profession not the snake.

That sums it all up right there (for me)!

 

[reptinut]

I don't think the snake in question will ever recover its venm. As for what I think, i agree with all the points made above, though i do think in some cases it should be done for educational purposes.

 

[Joel La Rocque]

When you study something (education) it must be there to study. The outer mechanics of snakes are all the same. If you want to study a snake, get a Garter snake. If you want to study venomous snake's, get a Venomous snake. Again there is no excuse for this procedure. Think of some lecturer addressing a class. "Here we have a Cape Cobra" one of the fiercest snakes alive! We have removed its venom glands and now we have a large Cape Cobra look alike. Cars are cars but a BMW is a breed of cars. Can you study the mechanics of a BMW by displaying a a BMW with a jetta engine? It makes no sense.
The bottom line is deceiving the public, a coward wanting to feel like a brave somebody, a liar, We can go on and on for days but this is what every respectable keeper that I know of believes. There is no reason for doing a procedure such as this. When I want to learn something about a snake, I go to someone who handles them all the time not to someone who is apparently frightened of them. I take in these animals upon occasion and give them as close to a normal life as I can but I see what is missing also. No fire, no pride. I believe there is an extra hot spot in hell for people who preform these cowardly acts and I hope I get to view them roasting while a snake turns the crank.

 

[BalloonzForU]

I just read this thread for the first time, even though it's pretty old.

I'd like to say this, everyone has their own opinion and while we may not agree with each other on some issues lets try to keep this civil as I know this is and always will be a heated topic.

I personally think of this as, taking a baby boy and castrating him just because he has the ability to rape one day..... STUPID and CRULE!!

 

[Tony C]

Interesting thread. I don't have any venomous snakes, and probably never will, but I don't see venomoid surgery as being a bad thing, as long as it is performed correctly by a competent vet, and the animal is properly cared for to ensure a quick healing with the best possible pain management. People have other animals surgically altered all the time, neutering/spaying dogs and cats, de-scenting skunks and ferrets, docking of dogs ears and tails, de-clawing cats, and I'm sure there are other procedures I haven't listed. We even do it to ourselves with circumcisions, vasectomies and tubal ligation, cosmetic surgery, body piercing and tattoos, and numerous other things. What makes removal of venom glands so terrible when all these other procedures are widely accepted? The only scientific evidence posted points toward the surgery having no negative effect on the snake's quality of life, and that is much more convincing to me than anthropomorphic speculation into the snake's emotional state.

There is absolutely nothing natural about keeping a wild animal in a cage, so why is it so important to preserve their natural ability to deliver venom? We are already altering their behavior by keeping them in cages, and for most species altering their natural pattern and other physical attributes for our pleasure through selective breeding, how is it that those alterations are fine, but venomoid surgery is taboo?

It seems that all the arguments against it are based on unsupported speculation into possible side effects, or macho B.S. about how people who don't keep hots are cowards, and not as "cool" as the "elite" hot keepers. The first is silly and pointless, the second is downright dangerous to the entire herp hobby, the general public thinks that most of us are at least a little crazy and need to be regulated or banned entirely from keeping herps, and macho posturing with deadly animals adds fuel to that fire.

 

[BGalloway]

I don't think anyone is calling people who do not keep hots cowards. I think what was said is that people who handled venomoid snakes without revealing they were in fact venomoid were cowards, but that was just my interpretation of the post.

Where I interned we had a rattlesnake, singular, and this one animal was kept under lock and key and only staff had access to it. This animal was completely intact and the staff were prepared to A. handle her properly, B. deal with any accidents by having antivenom and the number of the hospital on hand, and C. prevent any accidents by keeping everyone who worked there up to date on what do if they were moving the snake and it got dropped, if the door was found unlocked, where the snake was, etc. The snake was taken out a couple of times while I was there, and the memorable occasion was when it was for a young school group. The snake was in a secure container they could see into, the staff did not touch the snake and the lesson was respect for wildlife and snake diversity in the northeast. This snake is fed frozen thaw so really has no need for venom glands. Would I advocate removing the glands so people can get a closer look? To make for a safer less complicated procedure every time this animal needs to eat? Heck no!

To remove venom glands purely for convenience means, in my opinion, you are not prepared to work with venomous animals. There is a risk with any surgical procedure and so I believe surgeries should only be performed when necessary (this is my stance as a vet school applicant). I can think of no health benefits provided by performing venomoid surgery so to me the benefits do not outweigh the risks. There are more than enough nonvenomous snakes available for purchase; some of them even resemble venomous snakes, so I see no reason why a person would need to remove the animal's venom glands unless it was something other than the snake’s appearance they were attracted to. The question is then what, other than appearance, is there to be attracted to in a snake? I think the appeal of venomoid animals is that a person can own something "dangerous" without any of the risk and that line of thinking is classic of the infamous public perception of the irresponsible reptile hobbyist as "weird" or "dangerous". This is just my two cents on the topic.

 

[Joel La Rocque]

I BELIEVE I MADE THE COWARD STATEMENT, I DID INTEND IT FOR THOSE WANNABES WHO OWN VENOMOIDS AND ADVERTISE THEM AS HOT. I spent my first 9 years as a Colubrid keeper so I certainly do not think non-hot keepers are cowards, quite the opposite. I did not have much of an opinion, untill I saw what the surgery did to the animal, that was enough for me. I have also had several phone conversations with people who wanted a venomoid for the express purpose of advertising it as hot. I am in venom research and each snake must possess the exact number of sought after fractions in their venom's, if they do not possess it, they are free to go. My animals are treated better then most humans are treated, I would love to be treated the way we treat them. They are royalty and I think they know it. I can pick up any snake in the lab with my hands and it does not react in a frightened manor, I have never been tagged by free handling any of our snakes and that is well over two decades.
Any person who intentionally owns or creates a venomoid for the express reason of blind siding the public is a COWARD! Now I can not make my stand on this any clearer, I love my animals and that includes all of the non venomous ones also. They help medical science save lives especially those suffering with Cancer, a nobeler vocation for a venomous reptile I have not heard about. Joel T. La Rocque
Specialized Venoms LLC

 

[Digby Rigby]

Butchery

The first part of the hippocratic oath I believe and correct me if I am wrong is "Do no Harm". Cutting up a snake is doing harm and not correcting any medical problems with the animal. All who perform such operations are butchers. The only exceptions would be if the glands were infected or diseased and needed to be removed to save the animal. I understand you wanting to keep your job yet how long can you go on knowing what you are doing is morally and ethically wrong? At what point do you lose your soul completely by tolerating such a practice and taking part in it?

Digby Rigby [email protected]

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

People have other animals surgically altered all the time, neutering/spaying dogs and cats, de-scenting skunks and ferrets, docking of dogs ears and tails, de-clawing cats, and I'm sure there are other procedures I haven't listed. We even do it to ourselves with circumcisions, vasectomies and tubal ligation, cosmetic surgery, body piercing and tattoos, and numerous other things. What makes removal of venom glands so terrible when all these other procedures are widely accepted? The only scientific evidence posted points toward the surgery having no negative effect on the snake's quality of life, and that is much more convincing to me than anthropomorphic speculation into the snake's emotional state.

I agree with these comparisons for the most part but humans don't have a procedure to rip out their finger nails so I am against de-clawing. Humans wouldn't remove salivary glands so why do it to a snake? Im under the impression that the venom is part of the digestion process as well as killing the animal?
Also-These snakes have developed larger fangs to deliver poison and more potent venom over many years of predator-prey relations and to just remove this adaptation is not having respect for the animal and its origins. Next up constrictors on muscle relaxers! Haha

 

[Tony C]

I think the appeal of venomoid animals is that a person can own something "dangerous" without any of the risk and that line of thinking is classic of the infamous public perception of the irresponsible reptile hobbyist as "weird" or "dangerous". This is just my two cents on the topic.

I guarantee you that the average member of the general public will have a more favorable view of venomoids and their keepers than hots. Whether it's correct or not, the perception will be that venomoids are safe and kept by responsible weird people, and that hots are dangerous and kept by irresponsible weird people. Whether we like it or not we have to maintain an image of responsibility to the general public and the politicians representing them, or we will lose our hobby in it's entirety. There will be no distinction between venomous and nonvenomous, or large constricting pythons and balls, reptiles will simply begin to be banned outright in large groups until we aren't allowed to keep any.