Your own line...

[Jeremy Letkey]

Your own line…

What does it take to make something your own line???
Obviously a random proven genetic mutation fits the bill. How else does a person develop their own line? Where is the line drawn for taking credit.
Is it years of re-breeding, crossing and refining? How many years do you have to work on it? How many crosses? How well can a line be refined? Is it making a significant change to someone else’s line? If so, is it really your line? What defines a significant change? I know that there many variables. This is something that hits close to home for me and I would like your honest and well thought out opinions.




This has been nagging at me for awhile now. I saw a post on another forum and didn’t want to berate the poster but I would like some opinions on the topic.

 

[dprince]

Jeremy, I honestly don't know. You're asking really good questions, so here's some of my thoughts.

I think a big part of it is time. Of the people that I can think of with their own "lines" - tangerine is the one that comes readily to mind - the one commonality they all share is years of experience in breeding their tang lines. I also think that when they have taken a specific trait that came from their own breeding results, ie: really dark orange, an almost full carrot tail, and have been able to successfully breed it into their offspring, with somewhat predictible results, I think they can qualify as it as their own "line."

How much "change" is hard to say.........I'm not sure there is a specific criteria for that.

I don't think it has to be a specific number of years or crosses, but it has to be somewhat predictible over several generations, maybe three or four? Maybe more?

These are just some starter thoughts.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think that when a breeder has worked on a particular gecko morph for a long time, and it can easily be distinguished apart from all others, then it's your own line. Some examples are:

Jeremy's Raining Red Stripes
Kelli's Electric Tangerines
Dan's Firewaters
Albey's Carrot-tails

(there are more...)

Also, the thing I like about these exclusive lines are that they are named appropriately for the morph (or combination) they are... which makes it easy for people to know and remember what they are.

 

[bro paul]

I agree with Marcia & Debbie. It's hard to get real specific here. I think it has a lot to do with the person that put the most work into it...and successfully brought it to the market (first). I like to think of "lines" as "specialties". A breeder that focuses (specializes) on a specific morph/look/project usually becomes known for it.

I'm not sure about what limits I would put on the amount of change or crosses needed to distinguish a "line". It seems like it kind of works itself out...again, based on those that really did the hard work...or hit the jack pot. I mean, there are a lot of little projects out there that breeders are working on (including myself) but how many of those projects really develop into something big, that they become known for...without years of thought and hard work? Those that stick with it and focus (and not try to do every single project there is!) eventually have a line...if they want. Sorry for not being real exacting here, but these are my thoughts. Great topic!

 

[GeckoJunkie]

You guys all have great points but one that I think really comes into play is popularity. If are not popular amongst the community, or the so called 'in crowd' I think you have a harder time calling something your own. Hope that makes sense and if not I hope you see where I am coming from.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

I appreciate all of your thoughts and opinions. I agree with all of it so far. I guess I am looking for more of a definition and I guess I believe that it just doesn't exist. Like Paul "it kinda seems like it works itself out".

I think that when a breeder has worked on a particular gecko morph for a long time, and it can easily be distinguished apart from all others, then it's your own line. Some examples are:

I like this thought, however, I think that you Marcia have spent a great amount of time line breeding your Patties. They are a coveted animal.

While they are better than others, it would be hard to distuinguish them from another outstanding Patty. With that said, I think that you would still be justified in setting your Patties apart from others by marketing them as "GGG" patties or whatever name you would choose.


Early on in the development of my morph (the Raining Red Stripe), I thought I was really pushing the envelope by naming it. Maybe I should not have named it. Just who the heck do I think I am?? Then I became relaxed and thought heck yeah I worked hard and deserve to name it. Now I have come back to thinking that I was nuts. I didn’t deserve to name it. I just took other peoples hard work and put some animals together for a few seasons. I don’t know, maybe next week, I’ll be back onboard.
This is something that I believe I will struggle with continually

Just my opinion.

 

[DanTheFireman]

EXCELLENT post, Jeremy. I think we should always pay the utmost respect to the founders of the distinct lines by giving them the credit they deserve. For example, I'm going on our sixth year of working with the Redstripes and have seen some people referring to them as "Dan's line of Redstripes". They were worked for five generations by Matt and Susan at HQ Reptiles and will always be the HQ line until combined with something else to form a distinct new form such as Jeremy's Raining Redstripes or JMG's Lavender Redstripes. If more than one person is working the same combo(s), the first to hatch gets bragging rights. JMHO.
Or, to quote Pee Wee Herman (Paul Reuben's creation); "Your mind plays tricks on you - You play tricks back."

 

[SteveB]

Well Jeremy, did you name your line the first year you produced a rainwater red stripe? More importantly, did you sell them as a named morph that first year? I think it switches over from being marketing to being a bloodline, the first year you could honestly say you bought/traded for breeding stock not to create, but to enhance your existing project.

 

[preacherman]

Dan, the fact that you quoted from Pee Wee Herman might make you the coolest guy I know.

This is a great thread, and all of the comments have been good. I think that sometimes people start referring to a specific breeder's "line" of animals whether that breeder approves of it or not. I've had people call me and tell me how much they like our "line" of tangerines. I'm not shy about telling people that we've produced some very nice tangs. But I'm also very honest about how we produced them. We purchased nice looking adults, paired them together, and were lucky enough to produce nice looking offspring. That does not qualify as our own "line".

Jeremy, the name "Raining Red Stripe" is a very appropriate name for the animals that you have produced. You developed a very cool morph and gave it a very cool name. What's wrong with that? Was there some marketing involved in your decision? Certainly. But that's nothing to be ashamed of. You are an honest breeder who produces beautiful, high quality animals at a fair price. You should feel nothing but pride for what you've accomplished.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Steve - I can answer no to both of those questions. I don't see how it would change if I had answered yes though. It does not change the origins of the animals or the amount of work put in.

I do agree with Thomas, I believe that your standing in the community can and does play a vital role in over all acceptance.

 

[SteveB]

Jeremy, my point is that anyone can put two animals together and anyone can attribute a name to anything they want. It takes dedication to continually breed for a purpose, to continually refine that purpose, to continually seek to better the breed and the bloodline. It is at that point that it goes beyond marketing and becomes something worthy of distinguishing. You've done just that. Your bloodline is distinct, is deliberate, is distinguished. Your bloodline is healthy and continually brings advances to the health of captive bred leopard geckos.

 

[boutiquegecko]

I have to agree that if numerous people are working on the same thing-and many are-ex macks and enigmas crossed with almost everything-one should get credit if hatching out the first whatever.
But I don' think that gives them title to start calling it a line of something unless it is a genetic random morph.
I agree though that if someone is selectively breeding a morph/line to refine it and distinguish it from others out there, and others are possibly referring to it as that person's line, then it's ok.
If you think about the time factor, I think it takes a few seasons to really establish something and see if it's working/reproducing/standing out etc, so that should be one answer. Jeremy, I'm sure you, Marcia, Kelli, Dan, the Jeffs etc, worked on your leos a few seasons to see how they held color/pattern etc before thinking to call it something else.
I'm pretty much saying what you guys have already said here.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Steve, I agree and I appreciate your thoughts. Where is that line though?? How do you know. I can't see the damn thing??

 

[eyelids]

I like to think of "lines" as "specialties". A breeder that focuses (specializes) on a specific morph/look/project usually becomes known for it.

:main_thumbsup:

That would be my opinion as well...

 

[godzillizard]

AWESOME thread Jeremy! I've been eager for someone to start this conversation. Being a "newbie", I don't want to step on anyones toes...

On naming line/selectively bred morphs: As a matter of fact, we are ALL re-breeding other peoples lines. But, if you eventually develop something extraordinarily different, and the majority of that projects offspring produced display those special traits, then, after a couple years of proof-breeding, I'd feel good enough to name and unleash my "creation" (amalgam) to the public (with a complete explanation, of course)

On new genetic morphs: I name all my geckos according to the line/group and breeder that they came from. I want to be able to illustrate the famliy tree of each of my geckos as far back as possible...in case some new mutation occurs/exposes itself in one of my groups, I'd be able to isolate it alot faster. Aren't all morphs-even the proven genetic mutations--line-bred also? Take Blazings(Tremper) for example: Some breeders like the ones with alot of yellow, and some like the pure white ones--the folks that breed yellow blazings together, yield alot of yellow blazings. While the folks that breed the whiter ones, tend to produce primarily pure white geckos. So I guess what 'm saying is that even genetic mutations can be line/selectively bred to enhance specific traits--so a mutation from one breeder may not look at all like another breeders version...

Seriously Jeremy, thanks! I loooooove to be able to chat about these things!

 

[dprince]

Early on in the development of my morph (the Raining Red Stripe), I thought I was really pushing the envelope by naming it. Maybe I should not have named it. Just who the heck do I think I am?? Then I became relaxed and thought heck yeah I worked hard and deserve to name it. Now I have come back to thinking that I was nuts. I didn’t deserve to name it. I just took other peoples hard work and put some animals together for a few seasons. I don’t know, maybe next week, I’ll be back onboard.
This is something that I believe I will struggle with continually

Just my opinion.

Jeremy, this is just one of the reasons that I respect you greatly as a breeder. You are willing to do a little "self reflection" and are willing and able to take a look at things from other perspectives.

Honestly, IMHO, you FULLY earned the right to name the raining red stripe morph. Not that my opinion matters a lick of beans, but I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. For what it's worth.

 

[dprince]

You guys all have great points but one that I think really comes into play is popularity. If you are not popular amongst the community, or the so called 'in crowd' I think you have a harder time calling something your own. Hope that makes sense and if not I hope you see where I am coming from.

I totally agree, though this is true in life in general. Not that it makes it right, or fair, but it's the way the world works sometimes.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Again, thanks to everyone for your thoughts.

A lot of very nice things have been said about me, while I humbly thank you , that is not what I'm looking for. lol Not for now anyway. lol

Let's say I named my morph the day it popped out? Does that change any thing?
I am trying to figure out when or why it is ok. Like I said, there probably is no real answer.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I just do not agree with giving "new" names to combination morphs. I see nothing all that different in "Raining Red Stripe", than what it actually is...a Rainwater Red Stripe. Just MO, not worth very much.

I think it takes time to create your own line, and I am still working on that. When I have made my first "Ruby Eyed Red Stripes", I would think it is about time I can call them "my own".

Will I call them anything other than what they are? Nope. They will still be Ruby Eyed Red Stripe Albinos a.k.a Red Striped Raptors.

 

[dprince]

Again, thanks to everyone for your thoughts.

A lot of very nice things have been said about me, while I humbly thank you , that is not what I'm looking for. lol Not for now anyway. lol

Let's say I named my morph the day it popped out? Does that change any thing?
I am trying to figure out when or why it is ok. Like I said, there probably is no real answer.

So here are my thoughts on those specific questions.........

If you have a new morph that randomly pops out of your line, you would still need to breed it to figure out what the heck it was (dominant, recessive, etc.) and how it worked. Perhaps it was just a random fluke that has no genetic basis, so you would have a cool, one of a kind gecko. Perhaps it is a true genetic deal, like the mack snows or enigmas, but you would only know by breeding it for a few generations.

Let's say that you, like you did, worked hard by crossing different things, and got something cool like the raining red stripe. IMHO, any breeder would STILL need to figure out if it could be replicated or not. Was it a random fluke? Could you breed RRS x RRS and get RRS? So could you technically name it the day it popped out? Yes...........but you might be eating Nike if you don't do your homework. :main_lipsrsealed:

I think once a breeder has answered these questions, and found the answers to indicate that either of these situations are genetic, then THAT is when a new "morph" can be named.

But I think that's different than a new "line". A new "line", IMHO, is when someone takes an already existing morph, and breeds for specific traits (like Marcia's CT patty's or any of the tang lines) and can show reproducible results over a few generations. I think that is worthy of a new "line" - and as Paul pointed out - sometimes, it's not the breeder who starts calling it their line.