A breeder's rant...

[SteveB]

They say that plagiarism is the highest form of flattery. I would have had NO PROBLEM allowing him to post my caresheet on his website with permission and credit. It's not about sending business my way, Steve. It's about RESPECT for someone's hard work.
Yes, I expect others to struggle through their OWN publications. Infringing on the copyright of someone else's hard work is not only disrespectful, but lazy. If this wasn't the case, then all the books, articles, and other informative publications people have written would be FREE.

Marcia, my statements were in response to the text I quoted, and not in response to your issue with the person who plagiarised your work.

And to respond to the last part of your reply, there are plenty of people publishing content with various licenses that allow for free distribution.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

there are plenty of people publishing content with various licenses that allow for free distribution.

Agreed. Good for them.

 

[SteveB]

Regardless... take care of yourself, Marcia.

If there's anything we can do for you, please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[pastelball]

I do the local show everynow and then. I had A guy come up to me and he had a small leopard gecko he just bought and asked me if he could keep it with a corn snake.

Hope you feel better.

 

[PaulSage]

This seems very distinctly seperate from the issues Marcia brings up. I can understand the frustration of dealing with impulsive bargain hunters that have a bit of hero worship going on...

Of course it's separate from the issues Marcia brought up; why would I reiterate the same gripes that Marcia already covered? I was just adding a few of my rants to the thread--you know--to make sure we got them all.

That's very different from dealing with the egos of so-called professionals, associates, etc. I don't really want to touch that one and I can sympathize with you to a degree. Although I don't know that it is beneficial to create distrust among the members of GF- we are largely a [dysfunctional] family, after all.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but being members on the same website related to geckos doesn't elicit any sense of "family" for me. We might have common interests, and I may have some very good friends who post on this website, but I don't see anything more than a community at best. My intent was not to "create distrust among the members of GF" but if that's how anyone interpreted my comments, then so be it. I don't see how it's any different than replying to a post with a suggestion to search for particular keywords. I'm all for freely sharing knowledge and information when possible, but I'm not too fond of spoon-feeding anyone what they need to know about geckos in general when the information and resources are already available to those who seek it.

But regarding the caresheet issue... some people are very comfortable with providing the proper husbandry for their animals, but do not feel they can be as articulate or perhaps do not feel the need to add to the massive number of caresheets out there. Shouldn't it be taken as a compliment that people want to promote your caresheet as an authoritative guide? And if they properly credit it, wouldn't that potentially send business your way as well?

One does not need to be incredibly articulate to write a care sheet, and if one care sheet is more "articulate" than another, I don't see how that would make it any less worthy. Care sheets are for providing basic information related to maintaining an animal; it's not like they're formal submissions for a writing contest. If one can adequately maintain geckos and has even the most rudimentary of writing abilities, they can write a care sheet. Like Marcia said, just copying someone else's is just "lazy."

I have no problem whatsoever with people providing a link to the care sheet on my website if they want. I feel that way gives sufficient credit to the person who created it. It's when people want to host or distribute the information as their own creation that I take issue with. It's nothing personal, it's just business. Finally, I don't think there can ever be too many care sheets available, because everyone who writes one is drawing from their own experiences and has something to add. No one care sheet short of a book can provide all there is to know about geckos. Some care sheets might include information that others don't. Having a multitude of care sheets and resources available allows people the opportunity to assess their options and helps them decide which methods may work best for them.

There are TONS of caresheets out there, and yet we all know there are very few that we would personally point people to as a reference. Shouldn't we support the distribution of quality, authoritative guides rather than expect everyone to struggle through writing their own? (assuming proper credit and the author approves of such distribution)

I don't think it's expecting too much to expect that people breeding and selling geckos come up with their own care sheet. If someone chooses to direct people to another breeder's care sheet instead of creating their own, that's their choice and I don't see a problem with it. However, I really don't see how writing a care sheet is such a formidable struggle that it warrants capitalizing off of someone else's. Sure, it may require a little effort, but I don't think it's an unreasonable request to make of someone supplying people with geckos.

 

[SteveB]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but being members on the same website related to geckos doesn't elicit any sense of "family" for me. We might have common interests, and I may have some very good friends who post on this website, but I don't see anything more than a community at best. My intent was not to "create distrust among the members of GF" but if that's how anyone interpreted my comments, then so be it.

I just don't believe this website would even exist if it wasn't for the degree of loyalty, friendship, and familial relationship that Kelli and others fostered within our community. I do try and keep that in mind when I contribute to this particular forum. I have many good friends here, but more importantly I consider everyone 'family' that would be welcome in my home and treated as such anytime.

One does not need to be incredibly articulate to write a care sheet, and if one care sheet is more "articulate" than another, I don't see how that would make it any less worthy. Care sheets are for providing basic information related to maintaining an animal; it's not like they're formal submissions for a writing contest. If one can adequately maintain geckos and has even the most rudimentary of writing abilities, they can write a care sheet. Like Marcia said, just copying someone else's is just "lazy."

I have no problem whatsoever with people providing a link to the care sheet on my website if they want. I feel that way gives sufficient credit to the person who created it. It's when people want to host or distribute the information as their own creation that I take issue with. It's nothing personal, it's just business. Finally, I don't think there can ever be too many care sheets available, because everyone who writes one is drawing from their own experiences and has something to add. No one care sheet short of a book can provide all there is to know about geckos. Some care sheets might include information that others don't. Having a multitude of care sheets and resources available allows people the opportunity to assess their options and helps them decide which methods may work best for them.

Fair enough. I don't agree, obviously, because an overabundance of information can often lead to conflicting and misleading information as well. But I do understand your perspective.

I don't think it's expecting too much to expect that people breeding and selling geckos come up with their own care sheet. If someone chooses to direct people to another breeder's care sheet instead of creating their own, that's their choice and I don't see a problem with it. However, I really don't see how writing a care sheet is such a formidable struggle that it warrants capitalizing off of someone else's. Sure, it may require a little effort, but I don't think it's an unreasonable request to make of someone supplying people with geckos.

Well I suppose that's true- even PetCo and PetSmart have their own caresheets

 

[robin]

Since I am a "mean old gecko lady", sick with a horrible cold, and spent all afternoon in the hospital emergency room for heart problems, I came home to read my email and decided to RANT!!!

Why do people buy geckos from other breeders and then expect me to answer their questions and advise them on their care?

Why do people email me with photos of geckos they are thinking about buying asking my opinion on whether or not they should buy them?

Why do people call and/or email me to answer very simple questions that they are too lazy to look up the answers for?

Why do people email or call me several times a day for information that is easily answered in my numerous care sheets on the GGG website?

Why do people give me a hard time about the price I sell my geckos for? If you can find one cheaper, why don't they just buy it?

Why do people get upset when I won't sell them a gecko if they insist on using calci-sand as a substrate?

Why do people accuse me of padding shipping costs when I charge less for shipping than most breeders?

Why do people expect me to ship them a gecko when it isn't safe to do it, and then threaten to go over to Fauna and post a 'Bad Guy" thread because I refuse to ship in freezing conditions?

Why do people send hate mail if I don't answer their emails within 20 minutes?

WHY??????????

idiots, the lot of em

 

[robin]

I always like it when some of our very own GF members repeatedly email me with their breeding questions looking for advice so that they don't have to post their questions here and shatter their "I'm experienced and know all there is to know" facade... err, I mean reputation.

I'll gladly answer questions people email me if it's about a gecko that they've purchased from me. BUT, when I'm feeling charitable I'd rather donate money or volunteer my time to worthy organizations; I'm not in the business of helping other breeders sell their geckos or bailing them out when one of their customers has an issue or question that the other breeder is unwilling, unavailable or unable to answer.

Finally (sorry but this feels really good right now) If you can't write your own care sheet, perhaps you shouldn't be raising and selling geckos. I am still floored when I have people ask me if they can put my care sheet on their website, or if they can hand out copies of my care sheet with their geckos at shows.

amen paul :main_thumbsup:

 

[robin]

3. (The final straw) I got an email from someone with 3 photos attached of the same gecko. It was a nice SHT. Here is his email:

"hello, my friend want to seel me this gecko. is it a morf? how much is it worth? shuld i buy it?"

What would YOU guys do in this these situations?

tell them before you even attempt to talk to them they need to learn how to spell and then once they (if they do) learn to spell, tell them, they need to make the choice for themselves that you are not a consultant.

come to think about it you might want to charge for consultation work

 

[acpart]

Something that bothers me, on the other end of the spectrum, are the people who inquire about a gecko and after several rounds of emails get to the point where they're saying "yes, I want to buy that one" and then stop responding. I have no problem with people who change their mind at the last minute, but would appreciate the courtesy of one more email telling me thanks but no thanks.

Aliza

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I did not start this thread for any other purpose but to rant about some of the things that bug me about being a leopard gecko breeder. I certainly did not post this to create a rift between the members of GeckoForums.net! I did not solicit judgements, only opinions of how others here might have handled my specific situations, and perhaps even to solicit others' similar experiences with these types of issues.

Sometimes, we all just need to vent... without over analyzation or rhetoricals.

This seems very distinctly seperate from the issues Marcia brings up. I can understand the frustration of dealing with impulsive bargain hunters that have a bit of hero worship going on...

That's very different from dealing with the egos of so-called professionals, associates, etc. I don't really want to touch that one and I can sympathize with you to a degree. Although I don't know that it is beneficial to create distrust among the members of GF- we are largely a [dysfunctional] family, after all.

I do see the members here at GF to be a 'family, but I do not think we are a dysfunctional one. I see this online community as being HIGHLY functional! As far as creating distrust among the members here, I would like to say that if I did not trust the members here on GF, I would not have posted this thread sharing my feelings. Likewise, I hope that the community feels like they can trust me as well.

I'm all for freely sharing knowledge and information when possible, but I'm not too fond of spoon-feeding anyone what they need to know about geckos in general when the information and resources are already available to those who seek it.

I have also done my share of 'spoon-feeding', and I certainly don't mind sharing knowledge and information with ANYONE! I wouldn't hang out here on GeckoForums.net if I wasn't willing to be a part of this community.

Perhaps many people do not realize the sheer number of phone calls, emails, and PM's some of us get every day. I try to answer each and every one of them, but there is a limit to what I am willing to sacrifice in time and energy, and I reserve the right to determine what is a waste of my time and energy for me.

Simply put, I am fed up with the small minority of people out there who make inconsiderate and unreasonable demands of my personal resources when they can be better utilized by those who are customers and/or potential customers.

 

[SteveB]

Marcia, why are you quoting my responses to something someone else said as if I directed those comments at you?

 

[robin]

shh steve this is a rant thread not an argumentative one

 

[bro paul]

I hope you're feeling better Marcia. Happy New Years, either way! You'll be in our prayers.

Also, thanks for always taking the time to answer my questions in the past. It means a lot...really.

As you know, one of the down sides of being a nice, helpful person is that people will tend to take advantage of your generosity. I don't know how to change that.

If you don't mind, I'd like to throw something out there that's been on my mind...and may explain a little bit about why there are so many frustrating aspects of "customer service" in the reptile industry. That being the possibility that for many people this "hobby" is more of an unhealthy addiction than a healthy hobby. Many of us call it a "passion", when in reality it's more characteristic of an addiction. That would explain the compulsive emails & purchases, the impatience, the lack of follow through, the panic...and so on.

I know from personal experience (confession time..lol)! I could write a book on all the bad decisions/financial risks I've made in the name of "advancing my collection". It finally hit me about 6 months ago...that I have to change my approach or risk losing something I really enjoy. I love my little leopards...and if I'm really going to give them the best care possible, then that means A LOT less geckos for me...and just slowing things down in general. This is after conducting my hobby as a fairly successful "small business" for the past 7 - 8 years. I'm still super excited about working with cutting edge genetics/projects...but the idea that I can get ahead with more geckos and more risks is gone. I don't think I even want to "be ahead"...if that makes sense. That's just me though...due to time constraints and all (and a bit of common sense). But, I'm using myself as an example of how "breeders" can quickly get in over their heads and begin making bad choices...and acting dumb, in general when it comes to reality with their hobby.

We've all seen how quickly someone can become a "breeder" with a nice looking website and tons of geckos (and possibly huge credit card debt). What most people (new hobbyist) don't know is how much stinking time and $ is involved in giving even a small collection the proper care. It's basically like running a small farm.

I must say that I have the utmost respect for those breeder/hobbyist (new & established) that have found the proper balance and maintain a successful, "healthy" hobby...showing a bit of discipline. Please share more of your wisdom with us...

Sorry for the rant within a rant...but, I thought this might fit in good here. I could go on and on, but then I'd have to go start a new thread :main_rolleyes: (lazy). I would like to hear what others think about the "addiction" aspect though.

On a side note, I'm already enjoying my geckos more than I have in years. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, why are you quoting my responses to something someone else said as if I directed those comments at you?

Sorry, Steve. I wasn't aware that any of your responses were directed at any individual.

Why are you being defensive and argumantive? It certainly is not the direction I wanted this thread to go.

 

[dprince]

Something that bothers me, on the other end of the spectrum, are the people who inquire about a gecko and after several rounds of emails get to the point where they're saying "yes, I want to buy that one" and then stop responding. I have no problem with people who change their mind at the last minute, but would appreciate the courtesy of one more email telling me thanks but no thanks.

Aliza

Amen!!

 

[PrototypeGeckos]

IWe've all seen how quickly someone can become a "breeder" with a nice looking website and tons of geckos (and possibly huge credit card debt). What most people (new hobbyist) don't know is how much stinking time and $ is involved in giving even a small collection the proper care. It's basically like running a small farm.

UGH, I am SOOOOOOO there right now.

I must say that I have the utmost respect for those breeder/hobbyist (new & established) that have found the proper balance and maintain a successful, "healthy" hobby...showing a bit of discipline. Please share more of your wisdom with us...

I am working on getting here, lol :main_laugh: , I will get there, I finally have found out what I can handle, what EXACTLY I want to accomplish with breeding, it took a year to finally figure it out and streamline my ideas, but now I know, so now I just have to sell some geckos.

 

[SteveB]

Sorry, Steve. I wasn't aware that any of your responses were directed at any individual.

Why are you being defensive and argumantive? It certainly is not the direction I wanted this thread to go.

Those responses were directly refering to the quoted text in my post, where the scenario is different from your particular rant. I'm sorry you took it personally, but if so it was taken out of context.


Not trying to be argumentative. My thought is that if you post a rant on a public forum you are soliciting feedback. Perhaps some attempt at rational discussion about the subject that upsets you will help you work out your thoughts so you no longer dwell on it with such intensity.

That is my way of thinking about it, anyway. If I go on a rant and everyone thinks I'm a complete idiot for feeling a certain way, I fully appreciate being taken down a notch and told such a thing. Likewise I appreciate sympathetic comments when deserved.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I must say that I have the utmost respect for those breeder/hobbyist (new & established) that have found the proper balance and maintain a successful, "healthy" hobby...showing a bit of discipline.

I couldn't agree more with most of your thoughts and comments in your above post!

Perhaps this is one of the things I am dealing with right now. When my 'addiction' to my hobby/business takes up more time and energy that my health and family life suffer, it's time to take a hard look at my priorities. None of us can be all things to all people, and I need to work on setting boundaries and and not let the rest get under my skin. One of the problems I see is that sometimes I care too much, and then it festers into resentment when it's my own fault for not managing thengs better. It is a no-win situation...

 

[SteveB]

Paul [Allen],

That was such a great post and all too true. Good luck with your future endeavors.