A TANGELO.....REDO!

[eric]

Great stuff everyone! This is what GECKOFORUMS is all about groups of people coming together! Awesome thank you all!

Side note: Its unfortunate that we have to reexamine some ones work to find the truth. But I couldn't think of a better group of people to do it than you all! With all are differences of opinion we always come through in the end!
Thanks again
Eric


"Get not your friends by bare compliments, but by giving them sensible tokens of your love."
Socrates

 

[yellermelon]

Not wanting to jump to far off subject but Im enjoying this learning goin on lol
Matt I understand now that the tangelo was line bred for more orange w/o use of hypo gene. Yet me and Eric noticed the distinct attributes like bold orange markings on the head and stuff are also on the aptors raptors...so being that this is a classic morph could it be the base for the nice tangerine in the aptor genetics? Or did Ron use the hypo genetics and its just a coincidence with the bold markings being simular? I enjoy a good gecko history lesson thread like this

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Or did Ron use the hypo genetics and its just a coincidence with the bold markings being simular?

Email him and ask...

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Tangelo aka Super Tangerine = Linebred Hypo Tangerine Albino

I was told the Super Tang was made with Ron`s own linebred Hypos.

Nick, the trait that you are working with from the "Tangelo" is the same trait that was selling "Super Tangerines". It is what we all know as a "hypo" trait, no matter what the mode of inheritance. It seems you have Tangerine color confused for the line of "hypo" which is what "removes" the banding. They have Tang in the name, because they are Tangerines also. I`m sure Ron is not saying Tangerines are a "co dom" trait, and that is not what he was selling you. It is the "possibility" that it may be something other than what it was originally thought to be. The line of "linebred" Hypo which I believe he has re-named, I mean. Not Tangerines which we all know as line bred/selective bred.

I would not buy into that based on possibilities, but that is just me. It might be different if there were a proven "super" form of the morph. The Super Tangerine was supposed to be a part of the R/Aptor morphs also, and we all know how many people have been breeding those. I`m not saying it can not happen, but it has not happened in the several years the genetics have been around.:main_thumbsup:

I agree with Jason, that "codoms" are generally incomplete dominant traits. It`s funny but most of us never even knew that until Jim came along. :main_laugh:

Jarrett, co-dom is actually short for co-operating dominance.

 

[jmlslayer]

Actually, the Mack Snows are an incomplete dominant mutation. For some reason, the reptile community labels anything with a "super" form as a codominant mutation, but this is incorrect.

The August, 2007 issue of Reptiles Magazine had an article dealing with the differnent genetic terms used among reptile breeders, and that article dealt with this issue:

"There are few examples of true codominant traits in reptiles...So is a trait incompletely dominant or codominant? ...many if not all reptile morphs called codominant are actually incompletely dominant. However, this distinction in terms rarely makes a difference in practice--at least until a true codominant morph appears. A good rule of thumb is that if there is a "super" form, the mutation is incompletely dominant." (Vincent J. Lynch. "Genetics 101". Reptiles Magazine. August, 2007. pg. 83)

Thanks thats kinda what dummies side if it has a super form it is incomplete dominant

 

[hunter66]

Marcia, so the Raptor is a poygenic trait that acts as a recessive. That being said a Raptor to a normal yields all normals het for Raptor (I think we are learning that the body color and eye color are two seperate things with the eclipse gene having many factors.)

If a Raptor is bred to a Tangelo and the offspring have the body coloring associated with either than could we say they are part of the same polygenic color complex? If that proved to be the case than the tangerine in the tangelos would also be considered a recessive trait right?

Also it sounds like the only gecko we should label as supers are the mack snows since the heterozygous and homozygous form of the hypo aren't visibly different.

Hunter

 

[Gregg M]

Greg, have you worked with the tangelos?

Hunter

Tangelos, no, but I have bred hundreds of super hypo tangerines, sunglows and outcrosses to know for a fact the tangerine color is not and does not act recessively...

If a Raptor is bred to a Tangelo and the offspring have the body coloring associated with either than could we say they are part of the same polygenic color complex? If that proved to be the case than the tangerine in the tangelos would also be considered a recessive trait right?

In one simple word, No... With raptors, its not the color that acts recessively, its the pattern and eye trait that ACTS recessive... I am not altogether convinced that the R/APTOR morphs are indeed true recessive genentics...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, so the Raptor is a poygenic trait that acts as a recessive. That being said a Raptor to a normal yields all normals het for Raptor (I think we are learning that the body color and eye color are two seperate things with the eclipse gene having many factors.)

A RAPTOR (Red-eyed Albino Patternless Tremper Orange) is a combination morph which is a Tremper albino (recessive), a patternless body created by combining a striped with a reverse-stripe (some say is recessive), that is orange (line-bred trait), and has a ruby-eye (which is a separate recessive trait).

If a Raptor is bred to a Tangelo and the offspring have the body coloring associated with either than could we say they are part of the same polygenic color complex? If that proved to be the case than the tangerine in the tangelos would also be considered a recessive trait right?

Yes and no. What makes a RAPTOR a RAPTOR is the fact that it has the eclipse eye trait, which IS recessive. Both the RAPTOR and the Tangelo are Tremper albinos, which is recessive. The orange coloration of both morphs is NOT recessive... it is line-bred. If you crossed a RAPTOR with a Tangelo, all the babies would be Tremper albinos (recessive), have extreme orange coloration (line-bred), and would be heterozygous for the red-eyed gene (recessive).

 

[godzillizard]

Why can't something be both polygenic and be recessive?

polygenic traits ARE recessive--just not simple (mono) recessives--they are dependant on multiple locii, not just a single locus. We desperately need to create a standardized language for this complex world of gecko gentics/traits!!!

On polygenic traits behaving like recessives: some traits will "stabilize" through vigorous line and/or selective breeding to the point that they will BEHAVE like simple recessives--but when you outcross--the expected rules of inheritance go out the window. By line and/or selective breeding we are trying to narrow the genetic of a group of animals to achieve/produce a desired appearance, this requires numerous generations and breeding only the best to the best. This narrowing of the genetic consequently increases the expression/potency of the desired traits.

In one simple word, No... With raptors, its not the color that acts recessively, its the pattern and eye trait that ACTS recessive... I am not altogether convinced that the R/APTOR morphs are indeed true recessive genentics...

Amen Gregg! the only simple recessive involved in the (R)aptor complex is the Tremper albino :main_thumbsup:

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Eclipse, Patternless Stripe, Stripe and Reverse Stripe are recessive traits, they are however NOT simple recessives. They are what is called a "cooperating recessive". The exact definition is, a group of two(or more) recessive genes that exist polygenically. Basically if there were never a Jungle or Striped Leo, the morphs which followed, would never have been produced. You have to have Stripes to get Reverse Stripes. You have to have Reverse Stripes to get Patternless Stripes(Aptor pattern)... and you have to have Patternless Stripes to get Eclipse.

Eclipse(Raptor) can be viewed as the "homozygous" form of Patternless Stripe(Aptor). I know some people may say it is not recessive unless Raptor X Raptor yields only Raptors which apparently is not the case. That would only be true if we were speaking of a simple recessive. Well it "ain`t" that simple, I promise!:main_laugh:

 

[hunter66]

polygenic traits ARE recessive--just not simple (mono) recessives--they are dependant on multiple locii, not just a single locus. We desperately need to create a standardized language for this complex world of gecko gentics/traits!!!

On polygenic traits behaving like recessives: some traits will "stabilize" through vigorous line and/or selective breeding to the point that they will BEHAVE like simple recessives--but when you outcross--the expected rules of inheritance go out the window. By line and/or selective breeding we are trying to narrow the genetic of a group of animals to achieve/produce a desired appearance, this requires numerous generations and breeding only the best to the best. This narrowing of the genetic consequently increases the expression/potency of the desired traits. QUOTE]

The expected rules of inheritance go out the window why? Is it because we don't know the number of loci being affected in the polygenic trait? Maybe the rules of inheritance still hold true and outrbreeding can be used to determine the number of involved loci.

Isn't it true that there are more than one foundation of tangerine and that the one founded in Texas may indeed behave differently than the others. Thus making what is "fact" in one case not necessarily "fact" in the other.

Hunter

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Isn't it true that there are more than one foundation of tangerine and that the one founded in Texas may indeed behave differently than the others. Thus making what is "fact" in one case not necessarily "fact" in the other.

No. It is not true.There is too much history that proves otherwise, which cannot be discussed on this forum.

 

[SaSobek]

No. It is not true.There is too much history that proves otherwise, which cannot be discussed on this forum.

True well said. lots of history, that lots of people need to learn. :main_thumbsup: Its all a big family tree that is easy to follow if you look into it and talk to the right people.

"The best history isn't in books. Its told by the people that lived it."

The same could be said about leo genetics.:main_thumbsup:

 

[Nigel4less]

True well said. lots of history, that lots of people need to learn. :main_thumbsup: Its all a big family tree that is easy to follow if you look into it and talk to the right people.

"The best history isn't in books. Its told by the people that lived it."

The same could be said about leo genetics.:main_thumbsup:

:main_yes:

 

[Gregg M]

The expected rules of inheritance go out the window why?

Why??? Because of the simple fact that the tangerine gene is NOT A SIMPLE RECESSIVE!!!

Isn't it true that there are more than one foundation of tangerine and that the one founded in Texas may indeed behave differently than the others. Thus making what is "fact" in one case not necessarily "fact" in the other.

No, it is not true... Not sure why you would think that... The fact is, Nick did not discover a new simple recessive tangerine gene... The tangerine in tangelos is of the same origin as the tangerine in any breeders stock which is in fact not recessive...

So to state he has animals that are het for tangerine is not only wrong but it is very misleading to potential buyers who do not know any better and any new person in the hobby who might stumble upon his site...:main_thumbsdown:

Also, hunter66, I can not help but wonder why the only 5 post you have made on this whole site since you joined are all in this one thread...

 

[eric]

True well said. lots of history, that lots of people need to learn. :main_thumbsup: Its all a big family tree that is easy to follow if you look into it and talk to the right people.

"The best history isn't in books. Its told by the people that lived it."

The same could be said about leo genetics.:main_thumbsup:

Amen:main_thumbsup:

Gregg your absolutely correct! "So to state he has animals that are het for tangerine is not only wrong but it is very misleading to potential buyers who do not know any better and any new person in the hobby who might stumble upon his site.".. Thank you for standing up.

 

[nicks]

I have updated my site with the following:

"The tangelo is a tangerine tremper albino; the tangerine is a polygenic line bred trait whose tangerine color has the same origin as all other tangerines on the market despite their founders claim otherwise. But through selective line-breeding has accomplished a deeper orange color and distinct look."

I bought them from a very well respected person as something new/different and I am sorry if what I have said mislead anybody.

Nick,
http://www.eereptiles.com

 

[Gregg M]

I have updated my site with the following:

"The tangelo is a tangerine tremper albino; the tangerine is a polygenic line bred trait whose tangerine color has the same origin as all other tangerines on the market despite their founders claim otherwise. But through selective line-breeding has accomplished a deeper orange color and distinct look."

I bought them from a very well respected person as something new/different and I am sorry if what I have said mislead anybody.

Nick,
http://www.eereptiles.com

Nick, you really did not have to go as far as that and you did not need to apologize to anyone...
Just listing your animals on your site as what they really are, is plenty...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Also, hunter66, I can not help but wonder why the only 5 post you have made on this whole site since you joined are all in this one thread...

Because "hunter 66" and "nicks" have identical IP addresses. Hmmmm....

 

[LeapinLizards]

Hahaha no way!!!

This thread has been one VERY interesting read. I thank everyone for their thoughts and contributions...it really helps to have stuff like this to read when you are trying to get a firm grasp on genetics!