AFT x Leo eggs fertile?

[thegeckoguy]

Wow...didnt think my thread would turn out like this LOL anyways its an interesting read, and yes ive read it all.

Just wondering, are there any other gecko hybrids out there?

Yes, i do know of one or 2. There is the Chahoua x Crested hybrid that is VERY intense. Intense being AMAZING colors. Im pretty sure ive also seen Gargoyle x Cresteds. But then again, they are related so i can see how that would happen.

 

[Crazygecko]

I would have to think that the biggest concern in all of this cross breeding is the likelihood of the mixed gentics getting into others leapord and AFT projects without them knowing that the possible offspring they have purchased were some kind of hybrid.
If the whole purpose in this is to get a AFT that kind of looks like a leapord then just go out and buy a leapord since they already resemble each other for the most part in body shape. And well leapords are already stunning and I cant think of any way a AFT would enhance there looks.

 

[thegeckoguy]

I personally think a hybrid would be pretty sweet. There shouldnt be any confusion if the seller knew what they were selling and they correctly labeled it.

 

[Gregg M]

I personally think a hybrid would be pretty sweet. There shouldnt be any confusion if the seller knew what they were selling and they correctly labeled it.

Ok, but once the hybrids are out on the market in other collections it would be hard to control breedings by other people. Lets say this cross does happen and the offspring are fertile. They will be sold and someone will breed it to either a leo or a fat tail. Now you have 25% 75% crosses. Lets say these crosses are not sold as crosses. Instead they are being passed off as some new leo or fat tail morph or the real genetics are not disclosed. It is easy to see how the leo or fat tail bloodlines can be tainted...

It would be cool to see some enigma fat tails though... LOL

 

[thegeckoguy]

I could see that happening. I can see it from both sides. I mean an AFT Leo would be really sweet then again if people either mis labeled it or just didnt really care then it could cause some issues further down the road.

 

[Baoh]

I would have to think that the biggest concern in all of this cross breeding is the likelihood of the mixed gentics getting into others leapord and AFT projects without them knowing that the possible offspring they have purchased were some kind of hybrid.
If the whole purpose in this is to get a AFT that kind of looks like a leapord then just go out and buy a leapord since they already resemble each other for the most part in body shape. And well leapords are already stunning and I cant think of any way a AFT would enhance there looks.

This is a legitimate concern. It comes up with subspecies of Hermann's tortoise, for instance. Once people become very good at it, the differences can be distinguished, but a few generations of mixing of a single hybrid in an otherwise pure colony can easily get visually lost. It's a risk, yes, but we don't even know if fertility would allow it yet.

 

[Baoh]

How about all you people who back this experiment take all your leapords get AFT mates for all of them and try this cross. Then post your results. If you are so for it then go and try it to see if it can be done.

Pay for it and I'll do it.

I have been considering trying this for a while with a select individual, but have always been put off by the potential lack of return. I have enough expensive animal friends as it is.

 

[Crazygecko]

LOL i think the point of me making that comment Baoh was for the people who are so for it to just put there foot where there mouth is and do it if they feel so strongly about it.
If I was for cross breeding I would go out and do it.

Now onto something I talked about in one of my previous post about the horse donkey = mule thing. And how they use a Male donkey because of the fewer chromosomes and the results are more viable offspring then the other way around. I was doing a little research on this with geckos and came up with a cross of hybrid gecko that they said seems to for the most part work the same way. One species has to be male and the other female or it doesnt seem to work. Dont shoot me if I get the spelling wrong but I think the two species were Chuhha x Crested gecko. no clue how to spell that chuhha gecko. lol
It would be interesting to know if the people who have tried the AFTx Leapord cross tried using geckos from each sex for each species.

 

[thegeckoguy]

so try both like-

M/leo x F/AFT

or
F/leo x M/AFT

I wonder if that would make a difference? I suppose it would be worth a try.

 

[Stitchex]

Are genetics strongest in Wild type morphs of Leopards? I've read somewhere that white tigers were actually bad, since they have a weaker ammune system or something like that. It's the albinoism in them that hits them. What if this is the same for reptiles? Would it be possible to breed a normal morph Leo to an AFT? I don't know much on AFT's, don't have one, so I don't know how it would go morph wise with them. Just a thought here...

 

[Baoh]

LOL i think the point of me making that comment Baoh was for the people who are so for it to just put there foot where there mouth is and do it if they feel so strongly about it.
If I was for cross breeding I would go out and do it.

Now onto something I talked about in one of my previous post about the horse donkey = mule thing. And how they use a Male donkey because of the fewer chromosomes and the results are more viable offspring then the other way around. I was doing a little research on this with geckos and came up with a cross of hybrid gecko that they said seems to for the most part work the same way. One species has to be male and the other female or it doesnt seem to work. Dont shoot me if I get the spelling wrong but I think the two species were Chuhha x Crested gecko. no clue how to spell that chuhha gecko. lol
It would be interesting to know if the people who have tried the AFTx Leapord cross tried using geckos from each sex for each species.

Did you mean "money" in place of "foot" as far as the idiom goes?

I asked earlier about the chromosomal number, but I haven't seen anybody give an answer so far. I'm thinking about it.

 

[Baoh]

Are genetics strongest in Wild type morphs of Leopards? I've read somewhere that white tigers were actually bad, since they have a weaker ammune system or something like that. It's the albinoism in them that hits them. What if this is the same for reptiles? Would it be possible to breed a normal morph Leo to an AFT? I don't know much on AFT's, don't have one, so I don't know how it would go morph wise with them. Just a thought here...

I have seen pics of poorly inbred tigers for that purpose. Quite sad. The problems are due to this. They are not albinos.

 

[Gregg M]

Now onto something I talked about in one of my previous post about the horse donkey = mule thing. And how they use a Male donkey because of the fewer chromosomes and the results are more viable offspring then the other way around. I was doing a little research on this with geckos and came up with a cross of hybrid gecko that they said seems to for the most part work the same way. One species has to be male and the other female or it doesnt seem to work. Dont shoot me if I get the spelling wrong but I think the two species were Chuhha x Crested gecko. no clue how to spell that chuhha gecko. lol
It would be interesting to know if the people who have tried the AFTx Leapord cross tried using geckos from each sex for each species.

Actually they use the female Crested because the eggs are not as tough as the eggs produced by a Chahoua. The eggs of a Chahoua are naturally tougher eggs that do not hatch as easily as Crested eggs. That is what I have heard from people who have crossed these two species both ways... Has nothing at all to do with chromosomes. Again, you can not compare reptilian genetics with mammalian genetics. Mammals are much more complex on a genetic level. Its like comparing apples to car engines...

I would like to see one bit of literature where leo and fat tail chromosomes are compared and counted against eachother in any way... I can not find anything...

 

[Baoh]

I would like to see one bit of literature where leo and fat tail chromosomes are compared and counted against eachother in any way... I can not find anything...

Likewise. All I ever managed to come across was mitochondrial material examination for the sake of thorough phylogenetic taxonomic purposes, which is pretty much worthless to us outside of using it to decide potential hybridization cross partners on the macro scale (slightly better than worthless).

 

[David Loftin]

Not many people have tried to hybridize different species of Rhacodactylus. Keep in mind that they are closely related as they are in the same genus [tho there is a push to move R. chahoua to Eurodactylus [sp?] I know someone who successfully crossed a male R. ciliatus with a female R. auriculatus and had offspring. He never kept any of the offspring to raise them up [and discover the sex] and instead donated them to a museum. R. sarasinorum is actually the most closely related to R. ciliatus according to the herptofauna of New Caledonia. I would personally love to see an ultra-agressive R. leachianus X R. auriculatus. <3

 

[chaosapiant]

By defnition, a species is defined as an organism that can mate and give birth to fertile offspring. So, even if AFT/Leo babies hatched, they themselves would be infertile most likely.

 

[Baoh]

By defnition, a species is defined as an organism that can mate and give birth to fertile offspring. So, even if AFT/Leo babies hatched, they themselves would be infertile most likely.

Actually, that is only a portion of the definition, but a crucial one. However, the second sentence's hypothesis is not mandated by the first sentence's statement.

 

[Gregg M]

So, even if AFT/Leo babies hatched, they themselves would be infertile most likely.

What are your reasons for coming to this conclusion??? If you have not noticed most, if not all of the reptilian hybrids in the trade today have proven to be fertile. In some cases the hybrids are easier to breed than the parent species...

As I have said a couple of times in this thread you CAN NOT go by the results of mammalian hybidization. Mammals are way more complex.

As far as I know and as far as anyone else knows there are no reptilian "mules"...

If anything, the results of reptilian hybridization in the hobby thus far suggest that the resulting offspring have a very high chance of being fertile and will be able to reproduce.

 

[Halley]

I asked earlier about the chromosomal number, but I haven't seen anybody give an answer so far. I'm thinking about it.

Leopard geckos have 38 chromosomes (19 pairs)

I have not been able to find what the # of chromosomes an AFT has of yet, but I remember reading somewhere that they have a different # of chromosomes, however it was not stated the # each had.

But… the person who said that could have been a 40 year old man sitting, naked, in his mamma’s basement, eating nachos. You never really know on the internet, but I will try and look up the # of chromosome that AFTs possess.

 

[RepBex]

So where are the pictures ?

dont any of you wont proof of this like pictures of a candleing of one of the eggs ?