Any ideas? I call it freak

[noahsark31]

I have a morph question. Im not sure of what these are. I have produced 4 to date. Sire is a jungle snow poss het bell. Dam is a snow blizzard het tremper. Here is what has been produced this yr from that pair. 3 Super snows, 4 FREAKS, 2 snow or super snow blizzards, 1 snow. The freaks look like patternless but there is no patternless gene in them. Also if they are somehow patternless then the adults had both the patternelss and blizzard genes in them. This is highly un likely because the adults are form 2 different breeders, one here in STL and one in California I believe. They are deffinately snows but what else? I will be test breeding the 42 g male to a patternless female and a BB female soon. I am very excited to see what I get. The adult has a pale yellow and at times looks lime green with the pattern of a baby patternless. The reason im leaning towards something new is the pattern is still there and no patterneless genes involved. All of the baby freaks looked similar when hatched. All white with a dark grey/ black pattern then change with each shed.

Any Ideas?
Cody
[email protected]

 

[turbogex]

Is the father het bell or did you mean to put blizzard? If you produced snow blizzards than that would be another unknown het for the father.

 

[triplegex]

Did you really cross a het bell to a het tremper? If so cull all the offspring the are just genetic timebombs...

 

[roger]

Did you really cross a het bell to a het tremper? If so cull all the offspring the are just genetic timebombs...

Although its not wise to cross breed different strains all that you would get are what i call mutts where the genetics are muddied.

 

[Jordan]

what a daft pairing.
if you got visual blizzards out then the fatrher had to be het blizzard, also if you got patternless out then they must both be het patternless.
But crossing the albino strains was a big mess and mistake.
From this pairing it seems youve just got a load of unknwon offspring all het for random stuff and what not. i wouldnt bother test breeding them.

 

[noahsark31]

I am not in any way concerned about the albino genes. I just put what they are het for. Yes I did make a mistake, the father is also poss het blizz. Well I guess the father is for sure het blizzard. The confusing thing about this whole breeding is for a patternless to be produced both parents have to be hets. Both sources that we bought the parents swear that there is only the blizzard gene and no patternless. Its possible still they are hets but very slim chance. Also, dont patternless snows turn white as adults, with no pattern?

 

[Jordan]

blizzard is a patternless gene, so are you sure the babies actually look like murphy patternless and not just blizzard?

and you might not mind about the albino genes, but other people do. albino strains should never be crossed. not even het albinos.

 

[noahsark31]

I am aware that blizzard is a patternless gene. I am 100% sure that these specific "freaks" are not a known blizzard morph. I will try to get pics of the rest of the babies from this breeding on here tonight. That may help you understand where im coming from and why im so confused. I posted 2 pics. 1 of a baby and 1 of a 42g male from early this yr. Can you see them or did they not come through? I meant no offense by crossing the albino lines. The only reason im test breeding the male to a BB is because its the only blizzard female of age and health in my budget at the time. With the first breeding to the Patternless and BB i should be able to tell if it is indeed just a patternless snow.
Cody

 

[triplegex]

blizzard is a patternless gene, so are you sure the babies actually look like murphy patternless and not just blizzard?

and you might not mind about the albino genes, but other people do. albino strains should never be crossed. not even het albinos.

It's not just if we "like" it or not from what I have always been told crossing strains leads to deformities( eye and eye lid deformities) :main_no:

 

[noahsark31]

Here are a few pics from the clutch. Pics are bad sorry for that. This shows the snow blizz, super snow, norm snow and freak. Thats the variety of what has hatched from this pair.

 

[ddkgeckos]

Dont understand why crossing a bell with a tremper is so bad! Sure it can muddle up the genes a bit but if you keep track of whats going on then its fine imo. Saying it can cause deformity's and problems in nonsense, unless you have proof?? I didnt think so. Its ok to have a gecko that is het blizzard , het tremper , het eclipse for example but its not to have one het tremper , het bell. Its nonsense and very hypocritical. It seems for what ever reason its ok to have mulit hets aslong as theres only one albino in there and it seems its ok to breed enigmas knowing they may have real bad problems but its wrong to produce a gecko that is het for bell and tremper. I really dont get it!

But thats just my oppinion and just like you im entitled to it.

 

[Jordan]

you breed a het tremper het bell to het tremper het bell, you get an albino offspring.... what albino is it? tremper? bell? both?

the genetics of the animals must be known.

 

[ddkgeckos]

you breed a het tremper het bell to het tremper het bell, you get an albino offspring.... what albino is it? tremper? bell? both?

the genetics of the animals must be known.

First off there is a visual difference between a tremper and a bell. So to the trained eye you would know.

Secondly i didnt say it should be done i said i dont see a problem with it being done. We should be trying to keep the genes clean but if thats the case then should we be breeding albinos at all? No as they are genetically weak animals comared to a non albino. Again its just very very hypocritical to say that it should not be done but its ok to breed enigmas for example, My oppinion is each to there own as long as the breeder is prepared to sort out the hets or take care of the bad enigmas etc.

 

[Jordan]

First off there is a visual difference between a tremper and a bell. So to the trained eye you would know.

Secondly i didnt say it should be done i said i dont see a problem with it being done. We should be trying to keep the genes clean but if thats the case then should we be breeding albinos at all? No as they are genetically weak animals comared to a non albino. Again its just very very hypocritical to say that it should not be done but its ok to breed enigmas for example, My oppinion is each to there own as long as the breeder is prepared to sort out the hets or take care of the bad enigmas etc.

i get your point yes. But the three albino strains can even sometimes be differcult to tell apart even to trained eyes. And how do you tell one that is homozygous for more than one albino strain.
but i understand your point, however i do the see the problem with it.

 

[ddkgeckos]

i get your point yes. But the three albino strains can even sometimes be differcult to tell apart even to trained eyes. And how do you tell one that is homozygous for more than one albino strain.
but i understand your point, however i do the see the problem with it.

yes i see the problem with it aswell but i find it funny that some people get really annoyed and angry by it yet they are happy to breed enigma x enigma and produce a lot of unhealthy leos that way.

For me if you can avoid it then you should but its not the end of the world if you produce a het tremper het bell leo id rather that than produce a enigma with bad issues.

 

[Dog Shrink]

My thought on crossing the albino strains was more of a I didn't think you wanted a double albino gene moreso than id issues. Can a double albino gene cause problems like say in dogs the double merle gene can cause deafness and blindness? Is there genetic defect that can come from "too much" albino?

Also I'm against breeding enigmas... I think ANY morph that shows a propencity for a life altering defect should absolutely NOT be bred regardless of what it adds to the color morph pool. However there is always an acception, if an enigma hasn't shown evidence of the syndrom for I think at lerast 4-5 generation then maybe... MAYBE it could be considered defect free and possibly bred but, I wouldn't buy it simply because of the possibility, I'd be the one to get the one out of 5 generations that DID show symptoms with my luck.

 

[ddkgeckos]

My thought on crossing the albino strains was more of a I didn't think you wanted a double albino gene moreso than id issues. Can a double albino gene cause problems like say in dogs the double merle gene can cause deafness and blindness? Is there genetic defect that can come from "too much" albino?

Also I'm against breeding enigmas... I think ANY morph that shows a propencity for a life altering defect should absolutely NOT be bred regardless of what it adds to the color morph pool. However there is always an acception, if an enigma hasn't shown evidence of the syndrom for I think at lerast 4-5 generation then maybe... MAYBE it could be considered defect free and possibly bred but, I wouldn't buy it simply because of the possibility, I'd be the one to get the one out of 5 generations that DID show symptoms with my luck.

I see your point but thats where common sense has to come into play, i mean if you keep breeding something that is het for tremer and bell to each other than i can see why that is a problem but if you breed somet that is het tremper het bell to a het tremper you know you can only get visual trempers het bell and aslong as you dont throw another bell into the mix you know that the het bell will eventually dissapear and you can only produce tremper albinos and no bells. Its all about common sense for me i make sure i dont inbreed for more than two years and i also make sure i know exactly what my leos are het or poss het for. Its a very interesting topic and one i feel will always have a difference of oppinion for me i can see both sides to the debate.

 

[T-ReXx]

You cannot reliably, 100% tell visually the difference between the three albino strains. Eye color and other aspects can be used to make an educated guess, but people are fooled all the time, even experienced breeders. There are bells who look like trempers and trempers that look like rainwaters etc. And outside influences can change the phenotype of an animal, incubation/raising temps, whether or not it is crossed with another morph(snow for example, which can change shading of the color). And when it comes to identifying double homozygous animals it becomes impossible outside of test breeding. Not to mention that while crossing hets you can get all kinds of completely unknown animals.

A better question is: why would you want to? The three strains are incompatible, it doesn't improve upon the phenotype, and it just creates a genetic headache. Leopard geckos are screwed up enough already, there's absolutely no reason to add to that by making unidentifiable, genetically questionable animals.

 

[Quantumhigh]

The idea of breeding 2 different albino strains together is frowned apon by most if not all ethical breeder. As a breeder myself I want to know with 100% accuracy what I am selling and what I am buying. I want to know the history of the parents and history of parents parents. There are several reasons why not to cross albino strains and I cant think of any positive reasons why to cross albino strains. Its a disaster waiting to happen. As for enigmas in compairsion two wrongs dont make a right. I like what enigmas do to colors and patterns but I probally will never own one due to my personal ethical beliefs. There is nothing cute about reproducing a nerological disorder. I compair enigma breeding as taking people with down syndore or cleft lip and purposely reproducing a minor visual effect at the cost of inherent nerological issuse.

 

[JordanAng420]

yes i see the problem with it aswell but i find it funny that some people get really annoyed and angry by it yet they are happy to breed enigma x enigma and produce a lot of unhealthy leos that way.

For me if you can avoid it then you should but its not the end of the world if you produce a het tremper het bell leo id rather that than produce a enigma with bad issues.

I see your point, there is no proof that crossing albino strains proves to be unhealthy for the offspring.

However, I must say that I am compleatly against this practice, as most others are as well, for the reasons that have already been stated in regards to accuracy vs. human error... as well as the fact that there is just NO NEED for it.

But at the risk of going off topic (I guess we kind of already have), what evidence do you have that shows the enigma x enigma combination does, in fact, produce damaged and irregular offspring MORE SO than a non-enigma x enigma combination? Or is what you're saying that enigmas shouldn't be bred at all?

Just trying to understand.