crypto arguments and comments moved from a different thread...

[supperl]

The list of breeders that RT got geckos from for crypto testing will not be published. I do know that those who had crypto in their colonies were notified. Fortunatley, I never received such notification!

You folks in Europe are much better about having your newly acquired geckos tested for parasites, and veterinary care in general. I wish more US geckos keepers were the same.

Honestly I can´t realy think of many big breeders having it cause I just have many geckos from different ppl and I never got an animal from small ones only big breeders and much of them I know personally and I never had a positive here....

And yup here in Europe we are crazy for these tests as for to many good geckos dead by this deseas....

 

[Paco]

I will have agree with Marcia on this one.:main_thumbsup: There is a difference between Beneficial Bacteria and a Parasite. Look of the definitions of both. I think many people get them confused. Because we normally associate bacteria with "BAD" things and not good things. Also certain bacterias can be parasites as well, so you can see where the confusion can come into play. Bacteria can be both good and bad. Nows the part of trying to figure out which ones which.

 

[nevinm]

no, im deff not getting them confused..... ill say it again for everyone. go back and look at the threads posted by danielle. they are all about parasites being benifficial

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

There are parasites that are beneficial... we have microscopic crab-like mites that live in our eyelashes and eyebrows that keep the oils and wax from clogging up the hair follicles! (If you saw what they look like under a scanning electron microscopic image, you would pull out all out eyebrows and eyelashes! Ewwwww!!!)

But, I would love it if someone could find any scientific study or evidence that shows that pinworms, roundworms, tapeworms, hookworms, trichomonas, coccidia, flagellate protozoans, giardia, amoeba, cilliates, pentastomids, or cryptosporidia are beneficial parasites to a living creature, specifically a leopard gecko! LOL!!!.

BTW, in this posted link:
http://www.livescience.com/animals/070426_good_parasite.html
I says in the third section: "Wolbachia are bacteria that insects get only from their mothers."

 

[Paco]

no, im deff not getting them confused..... ill say it again for everyone. go back and look at the threads posted by danielle. they are all about parasites being benifficial

I did not say that "You" were getting them confused. General statement I made to a Whole group of people.

I read Danielle links they are all about the same Parasite and the same "Disease". And they do still not know much. There is much speculation still.

Once again as Marica said. There are Beneficial parasites as well. We just need to figure out which ones they are. Also out of the the list she mentioned I to would like to see Proof that any one of those parasites/bacteria is a beneficial one.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well, if a 'parasite' is beneficial or useful, then it isn't a parasite!

Good Old Webster definition:

Main Entry: par·a·site
Pronunciation: \ˈper-ə-ˌsīt, ˈpa-rə-\
Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
Date: 1539
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return

 

[nevinm]

guys guys, as i said im not inthis to argue about leopards. i was talking about other animals, mainly vegitarian animals, and i said that in the first post i made. anyway, even if a parisite is only breaking down sirtain things, its still breaking somethind down... POSSABLY healping in digestions, and its obvious if somethings live their entire lives and have it from birth to death... it must be doing something

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Nevin, I am not picking on you or Gregg M, or anyone for that matter. I think this is a good thread... certainly full of controversy and debate. I think that this type of discussion is actually very thought-provoking, and hopefully will raise the awareness of how much we still really need to learn!

I am so grateful that we can have these discussion without it turning into a flame war. It says a lot about this wonderful community.

 

[OSUgecko]

its obvious if somethings live their entire lives and have it from birth to death... it must be doing something

It is doing something... but that doesn't mean it is beneficial to the host. Not all parasites harm the host (especially if they are present in small numbers), but by their very definition they steal nutrients from their host. It is not a mutually beneficial relationship.

And no, coccidia does NOT help animals digest their food. You should see microscopic slides of the damage coccidia does to an animal's gut. Most animals become immune to its effects early on, but that does NOT mean that the coccidia is beneficial to them ever after. It just means that the animal is not being affected negatively OR positively by their presence.

ex... a costomer bought a dragon, took it to the vet, the vet gave it meds to get rid of the crypto because it was such a small amount, and dewormer to get rid of the pinworms, and about 4 weeks later the animal died. but the necropsy came back completely clean.

The vet might have given it a lethal dose of the dewormer/meds. I have no idea what he was giving to the animal to "get rid of crypto" but there is currently NO approved, effective treatment for crypto. If he told the animal's owner that he was killing crypto, I have my doubts as to his abilities as a veterinarian. Most likely, however, the animal died from something entirely unrelated to parasites. This is not "proof" of beneficial intestinal parasites.

Reptiles are dewormed for parasites every day. If your theory was true, than all herbivorous reptiles that were dewormed should die soon afterward.

 

[OSUgecko]

Danielle, your posted articles do not support your statements. Wolbachia (as already pointed out) is a bacteria, not a parasite. The rest of the articles are referring to treatment of autoimmune diseases (such as Crohn's disease or diabetes). The reason parasites have been shown to be experimentally "beneficial" to patients with these diseases is because the immune system stops attacking itself and starts attacking the parasites. The parasites are still sucking nutrients from the host and damaging the GI tract; but it is a much better tradeoff in comparison to death by one's own immune system.

In the case of people with inflammatory bowel disease (Crohn's) that were given intestinal worms to drink, the worms given weren't even human worms. Scientists used pig whipworms (Trichuris suis). In humans, T. suis creates what is known as a self-limiting infection; i.e., the worms will not reproduce within humans. They are not continually increasing in number, and once they die, the infection ends. The treatment has experimentally worked in about 80% of patients with Crohn's, because the whipworm infection basically distracted the immune system long enough for the immune-mediated inflammation in the intestines to heal. It "broke the cycle," if you will, of the immune system's obsession with its own GI tract and put it to a more healthy use.

In "normal" animals, parasites have no benefit, and can be harmful.

 

[daniellebluetoo]

Hey Alecia, do a google search on "beneficial Parasites", thats REALLY all I did, and I listed a few of the results. Less than 5 minutes of internet searching.

I am not arguing that they do or don't help, what I am saying is that I am not ignorant enough to claim that I know everything about parasites or hosts to say something as definitive as THEY DON"T help.

The older I get and the more I learn about people places things and myself, the more I realize just how much I don't know. I learn every single day of my life, it is a passion of mine. What isn't a passion of mine is to force my OPINION on others as truth.

I have NO problem presenting information as food for thought.


Marcia and Kelli, I don't think I got a reply from you guys about posting about your experiences about crypto and aflotoxin. I for one would be very interested in learning what you guys have.:main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia and Kelli, I don't think I got a reply from you guys about posting about your experiences about crypto and aflotoxin.

I promise I will post the information on aflatoxic poisoning soon... it will be in a separate thread!

So, what I don't understand is how a 'parasite' can be 'beneficial'. Isn't it an oxymoron?

 

[OSUgecko]

Danielle, I never claimed to know everything about parasites. I am not "forcing my opinions" on anyone. I am just sharing some of the information I have been taught as a veterinary student, which is backed up by scientific studies. I am spending 7+ years of my life studying cutting-edge medicine (including parasite physiology and treatment!) so that I can help animals and people. Part of my training involves using the best scientific resources we have available in understanding and treating all diseases. All I have done is make some of these resources available to this community. I'm sorry if that offends you.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK, I am going out on a limb here to share with you all that I have an autoimmune disease, and have been disabled from it for over 5 years. I also had 1/3 of my large intestine removed 4 years ago from disease. I am completely familiar with some of the experimentation going on with parasitic treatments! They hav absolutely NO medical or scientific credibility.

If a parasite is beneficial, it is no longer a parasite. These experiments using the eggs of a worm ingested by an immune deficient host may show some interesting results, but they are NOT beneficial!

What happens is, that the host that has an autoimmune disease is suddenly infected with a parasite, and the immune system shifts from fighting itself to trying to fight the parasite. When this happens, the symptoms of the autoimmune disease are somewhat in remission. Why? Because the immune system is focusing on fighting the parasite and not it's own body! The parasite is STILL doing damage to the GI system, which is no way beneficial to a subject, especially one who's immune system is compromised.

I'm sorry if this seems argumentive, but it is truly fact... and has been a fact of my life for over 5 years. Just because there are trials and experiements posted on the internet does not mean they are valid or have scientific or medical value. They are simply on the internet! If you would like to get some GOOD medical, veterinary, or scientific information, try 'Google Scholar'. I think you will will find it a much better resource for information of this type.

 

[daniellebluetoo]

well, yes, I personally Do believe that stating something that is an opinion as fact, definitely has the capacity to be offensive. There are less offensive ways to get an opinion across. But then again, that's just MY opinion.

Marcia, I can't wait to read your story! And now your latest post has me even more intrigued about the topic at hand. Have you tried these experiments personally, or known anyone who had? What other insight have you gained about it?

Thank you for sharing your personal information, I can imagine that might have been difficult.

Also, thank you for the other link, now I have something ELSE to keep me up at night with!!!!

 

[dprince]

well, yes, I personally Do believe that stating something that is an opinion as fact, definitely has the capacity to be offensive. There are less offensive ways to get an opinion across. But then again, that's just MY opinion.

While I agree with this statement, I think you're missing the point.

Perhaps you should re-read what Alicia and Marcia have written. They've both presented information that comes from reliable, credible resources and have the years of experience to back it up. However, you posted stuff here that was gotten off of google and "five minutes of searching" as "information" or - as your termed it, "food for thought". (I might even suggest that it was done......offensively?http://geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=294836&postcount=56)

When people responded appropriately to your post, somehow you feel that people are being offensive? (If I am missing something please LMK - I'm certainly human. ) I really just saw people - yourself included - having a good ol' fashioned debate, until this comment. :main_huh:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think it's time we all (myself included) steer this thread back to the subject of the original post and stay on topic. OK? Thanks...

 

[daniellebluetoo]

While I agree with this statement, I think you're missing the point.:main_huh:

NOpe, not at all. WE ALL have experience with reptiles here, some more than others. Personally, I have owned reptiles since I was a little girl, (i'm now 30)

I've raised MANy many animals over the years, horses pigs, birds, children, ALL of which are susceptible to parasites. I've used allopathic drugs and herbal remedies, both with vary-ing degrees of success. Used and consulted many many vets over the years.

What I offer as "food for thought", is merely that. I don't claim that the links I've posted are correct, or that I personally believe them, but I WILL share a story that gave me cause to think twice about the topic over the years.

Back when my son was a toddler, (he's almost 7 now) I raised pigs myself and I would often help friends that own a pig sanctuary. As most of us know pigs WILL EAT ANYTHING, to the exclusion of VERY very LITTLE. This makes them particularly susceptible to parasitic infections.

I took my son to a pediatrician for the sole purpose of "worming him"...lol....
About a yr prior my son HAd passed roundworms ( contracted from a friends dog) So I wanted to make sure that he was kept parasite free especially considering the environment we were in.

I was VERY hesitantly given a script for menbendazole. The pediatrician told me that they do now regularly give out "wormer" even to children form out of the country that are often carrying heavy parasite loads. She said there was a symbiotic relationship that would balance out in time.

I thought to myself at the time, what a load of crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This woman OBVIOUSLY knows NOTHING. She OBVIOUSLY doesn't know what I know or else she would think differently.

NOw I've never been one to take EVERYTHING I see hear or read as gospel, I like to do my own thinking, and come to my own conclusions.

I didn't believe this woman then, and I'm not so sure I do now, BUT it DID give me food for thought.:main_thumbsup:

So there you go, back on topic!

 

[dprince]

Well, here is some more "food for thought."

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/roundworms_in_dogs___puppies.html

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/roundworms-000144.htm

http://www.gexfiles.com/worms.html (a good brief summary of the effect in leopard geckos)

Since the example used was roundworms (including in humans), here's a link that describes in detail the life cycle of roundworms in dogs and puppies, cats and kittens, humans, and leopard geckos and how the relationship is NOT symbiotic.

I discussed this very topic last week with our director, who is a veterinarian. We had a very interesting discussion about roundworms specifically. There is NO symbiotic relationship - not in geckos, not in cats, not in dogs, not in humans. The pediatrician that stated that perhaps used the wrong word? When the larvae are encysted, they are just there, and can stay there for many years. They are not currently "hurting" the host, but they certainly aren't helping either. They are just there until a catalyst propels them to activate (ie: pregnancy in dogs and cats.)

I would be intrigued see any information that states otherwise.

 

[OSUgecko]

http://www.histopathology-india.net/Ascar.htm
Check the links to pictures of advanced ascarid infection in children (under "clinical presentation"). WARNING... pictures are disturbing. These symptoms can be caused by Ascaris suum, the pig roundworm, in addition to the human roundworm.

Visceral/ocular larval migrans can be caused by Toxacara canis, the dog roundworm. In addition to a ton of other physical problems, this disease presentation may cause blindness!

www.capcvet.org/downloads/Human_Parasites.pdf
Some other interesting pictures of zoonotic parasites.

Parasites are a pervasive health problem for both humans and animals worldwide. If you "google" zoonotic parasites for five minutes I'm sure you can find a lot more websites dealing with the effects of these destructive organisms.

I hope you are not continuing to use that pediatrician, for your children's sake!