N
Nigel4less
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I think we can all agree that Idiots usually don't have articles in Reptiles Magazine :main_thumbsup:
....(Too Lighten up the Mood)
crypto arguments and comments moved from a different thread...
- Thread starter Golden Gate Geckos
- Start date
I think we can all agree that Idiots usually don't have articles in Reptiles Magazine :main_thumbsup:
....(Too Lighten up the Mood)
Gregg M
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Ok, back on to the topic at hand...
Told you I would get some reading material for you Deb... LOL
I have more on my personal computer... I will post as I find it...
And for everyone else interested in this topic...
http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/25/1/20.pdf
www.veterinaria.uchile.cl/publicacion/congresoxi/prafesional/exo/5.doc
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3285789
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/2/891.pdf
Not 100% definitive but it does support what I was trying to get across...
Told you I would get some reading material for you Deb... LOL
I have more on my personal computer... I will post as I find it...
And for everyone else interested in this topic...
http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/25/1/20.pdf
www.veterinaria.uchile.cl/publicacion/congresoxi/prafesional/exo/5.doc
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3285789
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/2/891.pdf
Not 100% definitive but it does support what I was trying to get across...
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dprince
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Thank you Gregg.
So in the first link, it states on page 4 under results that only 3% of the reptiles sampled had crypto. It also state that there may be more than one strain of crypto that infects reptiles. Unfortunately, leopard geckos weren't a part of that particular study. Interesting read though!!
The second study states that a large number of reptiles carry crypto, but I can't access the actual study that was done.
The third seems to suggest that perhaps it isn't clearly understood which species of cryptos infects reptiles, and then cites the study in the first link you provided.
The fourth seems to support your view the best; out of 123 reptiles sampled, 48 snakes, 24 lizards, and 3 tortise samples were positive, well over 50%. It also states that nine different species of cryptos were found (of the previously mentioned samples)..........so PERHAPS what is occuring is that some species of cryptos could be living in certain reptiles with no ill effect, and some species of cryptos could be the lethal kind that we are familiar with in leopard geckos. Looks like these studies are all working on new studies to find out these answers and more.
Interesting reading for sure.
Golden Gate Geckos
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Here is another good paper on crypto in reptiles:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/70/2/891
This is why I equated cryptosporidiosis with HIV/AIDS. Rarely does AIDS or crypto in and of itself actually cause the death of a living being... it is the secondary disease caused by the immune system supression that is the 'actual' killer. But, the immune system had to have been compromised to begin with in order for the crypto to begin reproducing to clinical levels.
So Gregg, if you are looking for further argument on this particular subject... you will find none from me!
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/70/2/891
Well, I guess that explains why none of MY articles have been published in Reptiles magazine!
All I can say is, Gregg... if the shoe fits! To answer your question, I don't think we were ever in any disagreement about the fact that many leopard geckos who are infected with crypto do not show clinical symptoms until some form of stress compromises their immune system. This could be as simple as the stress of the breeding instinct, or a subtle change in their enviromental conditions.Gregg M said:
This is why I equated cryptosporidiosis with HIV/AIDS. Rarely does AIDS or crypto in and of itself actually cause the death of a living being... it is the secondary disease caused by the immune system supression that is the 'actual' killer. But, the immune system had to have been compromised to begin with in order for the crypto to begin reproducing to clinical levels.
So Gregg, if you are looking for further argument on this particular subject... you will find none from me!
Golden Gate Geckos
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Crap! I just realized that Gregg also quoted a link that I quoted... I apologize for the redundancy!
I appreciate the apology Greg. I understand that you have a lot of experience and that you have a lot to share with this community. I did not have a problem with you personally, just with how you were approaching the discussion. I obviously do not agree with you in all areas, but I am looking forward to continuing the discussion.
Gregg M
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Good deal Alicia... Glad you are not totally put of by my approach... LOL... Its hard for me to express my attitude in convo on the computer... See, I am a New Yorker so I use a thick accent and lots of hand motions... LOL... You cant see that in typed words... LOL... After the smoke clears, it all boils down to us doing everything we can to understand the issues we can all face, what brings them on, and what we can do to either avoid the situation or to keep our charges safe and healthy if/when a situation pops up...
Deb, I do not just read one shread of literature and take it as the 100% truth... What I do is read all I can and draw my own conclusions based on the info at hand... That is why I posted 4 links with 4 different views and outcomes... I can post a lot more than 4 and I will... Just need to find them in my computer... So its not just one in particular that supports my view, but it is combo of everything I have read over, that supports my view... Aleast in my head anyway... LOL
Anyway, I will post more links before the day is over...
Deb, I do not just read one shread of literature and take it as the 100% truth... What I do is read all I can and draw my own conclusions based on the info at hand... That is why I posted 4 links with 4 different views and outcomes... I can post a lot more than 4 and I will... Just need to find them in my computer... So its not just one in particular that supports my view, but it is combo of everything I have read over, that supports my view... Aleast in my head anyway... LOL
Anyway, I will post more links before the day is over...
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daniellebluetoo
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Now that every ones hackles are back down........
Anyone? really, ANY ONE!?!??!?!?:main_laugh::main_laugh:
Anyone? really, ANY ONE!?!??!?!?:main_laugh::main_laugh:
Finding crypto in a fecal sample is very difficult. You need a quality microscope (not cheap) with a 100x oil lens. You need slides and either a bunson burner, slide warmer, or lighter to heat fix your slides after you have prepared them. You need to have carbolfuchsin, ethyl alcohol, and methlyene blue as staining agents.
Even if you do the staining correctly, it is EXTREMELY HARD to visualize the organism because it is tiny and is usually not present in high numbers. It is also shed infrequently in the feces, so just because it wasn't in that particular fecal sample doesn't mean your animal wasn't infected.
Personally I would recommend sending off a fresh fecal sample to someone who has been professionally trained to do this procedure; i.e., either a lab that specializes in exotics or a good exotic veterinarian.
Even if you do the staining correctly, it is EXTREMELY HARD to visualize the organism because it is tiny and is usually not present in high numbers. It is also shed infrequently in the feces, so just because it wasn't in that particular fecal sample doesn't mean your animal wasn't infected.
Personally I would recommend sending off a fresh fecal sample to someone who has been professionally trained to do this procedure; i.e., either a lab that specializes in exotics or a good exotic veterinarian.
OK Greg, here are some of the high points from the articles that you posted that I consider to be relevant to this discussion.
Clincially healthy snakes can shed crypto in the feces over a period of up to 20 years (these were wild caught specimens kept in captivity). Wild caught snakes CAN die from this organism despite similar levels of husbandry (i.e. kept in the same zoo). Some species might be more resistant to the effects of crypto than others. Crypto in reptiles is not always self limiting in immunocompetent animals; it is frequently chronic, and can be lethal (in snakes). There are dozens of different crypto species, and it appears that not all reptiles respond to the infections in a similar way. Some wild caught snakes at the Saint Louis Zoo were diagnosed with crypto and euthanized to PREVENT SPREAD OF THE ORGANISM TO OTHER WILD CAUGHT REPTILES; "The effectiveness of the method was supported by the evident reduction of C. serpentis infection in snakes at the zoo."
I do not think these articles support your theory that MOST wild animals have crypto and that they are unaffected by it.
I also think that a lot of the issues surrounding parasitic problems of captive vs. wild animals has to do with acquired immunity (which is not related to improper husbandry). Animals that have been exposed to the parasite all their lives and for many generations are usually less affected by the parasite than naive animals, because the resistant animals have been naturally selected for in the wild population. It is well known that parasite resistance varies from animal to animal; if only the most resistant animals survive, they would naturally be better represented in the gene pool. This, not the animal's husbandry conditions, may account for the ability of WCs to be chronic subclinical carriers.
I found a variety of articles on PubMed that discussed crypto in reptiles (both captive and wild). The ones that I found did not seem to support your hypothesis. I will list the titles and primary authors below and copy the pertinent parts of the summary abstract. You are welcome to look them up and argue your case back! :main_thumbsup:
Clincially healthy snakes can shed crypto in the feces over a period of up to 20 years (these were wild caught specimens kept in captivity). Wild caught snakes CAN die from this organism despite similar levels of husbandry (i.e. kept in the same zoo). Some species might be more resistant to the effects of crypto than others. Crypto in reptiles is not always self limiting in immunocompetent animals; it is frequently chronic, and can be lethal (in snakes). There are dozens of different crypto species, and it appears that not all reptiles respond to the infections in a similar way. Some wild caught snakes at the Saint Louis Zoo were diagnosed with crypto and euthanized to PREVENT SPREAD OF THE ORGANISM TO OTHER WILD CAUGHT REPTILES; "The effectiveness of the method was supported by the evident reduction of C. serpentis infection in snakes at the zoo."
I do not think these articles support your theory that MOST wild animals have crypto and that they are unaffected by it.
I also think that a lot of the issues surrounding parasitic problems of captive vs. wild animals has to do with acquired immunity (which is not related to improper husbandry). Animals that have been exposed to the parasite all their lives and for many generations are usually less affected by the parasite than naive animals, because the resistant animals have been naturally selected for in the wild population. It is well known that parasite resistance varies from animal to animal; if only the most resistant animals survive, they would naturally be better represented in the gene pool. This, not the animal's husbandry conditions, may account for the ability of WCs to be chronic subclinical carriers.
I found a variety of articles on PubMed that discussed crypto in reptiles (both captive and wild). The ones that I found did not seem to support your hypothesis. I will list the titles and primary authors below and copy the pertinent parts of the summary abstract. You are welcome to look them up and argue your case back! :main_thumbsup:
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Occurrence of Cryptosporidium sp. in snakes in Japan.
Kuroki T, Izumiyama S, Yagita K, Une Y, Hayashidani H, Kuro-o M, Mori A, Moriguchi H, Toriba M, Ishibashi T, Endo T. (2008)
The aim of this study was to determine the prevalence of Cryptosporidium in snakes in Japan. Fecal samples or intestinal contents of 469 snakes, consisting of five species, were analyzed and Cryptosporidium oocysts were detected only from the Japanese grass snake Rhabdophis tigrinus. The mean prevalence of Cryptosporidium sp. in Japanese grass snakes was approximately 26% in the region studied. Histopathological observations revealed that the organism caused proliferative enteritis in the small intestine.
Infectious disease serologic survey in free-ranging Venezuelan anacondas (Eunectes murinus).
Calle PP, Rivas J, Muñoz M, Thorbjarnarson J, Holmstrom W, Karesh WB.
There have been limited serologic studies of free-ranging reptiles for evidence of exposure to potential pathogens. In the present study, serum or plasma samples from five male and five female free-ranging Venezuelan anacondas (Eunectes murinus) were screened for antibodies to... Cryptosporidium serpentes. Antibodies to these agents were not detected, or antibody titers were low and possibly nonspecific.
Cryptosporidium spp. in wild and captive reptiles.
Upton SJ, McAllister CT, Freed PS, Barnard SM.
Between 1986 and 1988, 528 reptiles originating from three continents were examined for Cryptosporidium spp. Fifteen specimens... were infected.
Cryptosporidium sp.-associated enteritis without gastritis in rough green snakes (Opheodrys aestivus) and a common garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis).
Brower AI, Cranfield MR.
An epizootic of severe Cryptosporidium sp.-associated enteritis occurred in a group of 15 wild-caught juvenile rough green snakes (Opheodrys aestivus) at the Baltimore Zoo quarantine facility. All of the animals died with no premonitory signs. Histopathologic examination... showed moderate to severe Cryptosporidium sp. infection and enteritis characterized by dense heterophilic and lymphocytic inflammatory infiltrates throughout the lamina propria with epithelial necrosis. Cryptosporidium sp. was also found in feces of an adult common garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) that was wild caught on zoo grounds and held in quarantine during the epizootic. After euthanasia, histologic examination of the garter snake showed a severe small intestinal Cryptosporidium sp. infection with only mild enteritis consisting of sparse heterophilic and lymphocytic infiltrates.
Proliferative enteritis in leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) associated with Cryptosporidium sp. infection.
Terrell SP, Uhl EW, Funk RS.
Twenty-three leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) with various clinical histories of weight loss, anorexia, lethargy, and diarrhea were submitted either intact or as biopsy specimens... Gross necropsy findings in the intact geckos included marked reduction of subcutaneous adipose tissue stores at the tail base and mild thickening and reddening of the small intestine. Histologic examination revealed Cryptosporidium sp. infection associated with hyperplasia and mononuclear inflammation of the small intestine in all geckos. Parasites and lesions were only rarely observed in the stomach and large intestine of geckos... This report implicates Cryptosporidium sp. as the cause of disease in the geckos and describes the range of histologic lesions observed.
Clinical and pathological observations on natural infections of cryptosporidiosis and flagellate protozoa in leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius).
Taylor MA, Geach MR, Cooley WA.
A group of adult leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) which had been losing weight for several months were found to be infected with Cryptosporidium species... The clinical signs were attributed to the presence of one or both types of parasites.
Kuroki T, Izumiyama S, Yagita K, Une Y, Hayashidani H, Kuro-o M, Mori A, Moriguchi H, Toriba M, Ishibashi T, Endo T. (2008)
The aim of this study was to determine the prevalence of Cryptosporidium in snakes in Japan. Fecal samples or intestinal contents of 469 snakes, consisting of five species, were analyzed and Cryptosporidium oocysts were detected only from the Japanese grass snake Rhabdophis tigrinus. The mean prevalence of Cryptosporidium sp. in Japanese grass snakes was approximately 26% in the region studied. Histopathological observations revealed that the organism caused proliferative enteritis in the small intestine.
Infectious disease serologic survey in free-ranging Venezuelan anacondas (Eunectes murinus).
Calle PP, Rivas J, Muñoz M, Thorbjarnarson J, Holmstrom W, Karesh WB.
There have been limited serologic studies of free-ranging reptiles for evidence of exposure to potential pathogens. In the present study, serum or plasma samples from five male and five female free-ranging Venezuelan anacondas (Eunectes murinus) were screened for antibodies to... Cryptosporidium serpentes. Antibodies to these agents were not detected, or antibody titers were low and possibly nonspecific.
Cryptosporidium spp. in wild and captive reptiles.
Upton SJ, McAllister CT, Freed PS, Barnard SM.
Between 1986 and 1988, 528 reptiles originating from three continents were examined for Cryptosporidium spp. Fifteen specimens... were infected.
Cryptosporidium sp.-associated enteritis without gastritis in rough green snakes (Opheodrys aestivus) and a common garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis).
Brower AI, Cranfield MR.
An epizootic of severe Cryptosporidium sp.-associated enteritis occurred in a group of 15 wild-caught juvenile rough green snakes (Opheodrys aestivus) at the Baltimore Zoo quarantine facility. All of the animals died with no premonitory signs. Histopathologic examination... showed moderate to severe Cryptosporidium sp. infection and enteritis characterized by dense heterophilic and lymphocytic inflammatory infiltrates throughout the lamina propria with epithelial necrosis. Cryptosporidium sp. was also found in feces of an adult common garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) that was wild caught on zoo grounds and held in quarantine during the epizootic. After euthanasia, histologic examination of the garter snake showed a severe small intestinal Cryptosporidium sp. infection with only mild enteritis consisting of sparse heterophilic and lymphocytic infiltrates.
Proliferative enteritis in leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) associated with Cryptosporidium sp. infection.
Terrell SP, Uhl EW, Funk RS.
Twenty-three leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) with various clinical histories of weight loss, anorexia, lethargy, and diarrhea were submitted either intact or as biopsy specimens... Gross necropsy findings in the intact geckos included marked reduction of subcutaneous adipose tissue stores at the tail base and mild thickening and reddening of the small intestine. Histologic examination revealed Cryptosporidium sp. infection associated with hyperplasia and mononuclear inflammation of the small intestine in all geckos. Parasites and lesions were only rarely observed in the stomach and large intestine of geckos... This report implicates Cryptosporidium sp. as the cause of disease in the geckos and describes the range of histologic lesions observed.
Clinical and pathological observations on natural infections of cryptosporidiosis and flagellate protozoa in leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius).
Taylor MA, Geach MR, Cooley WA.
A group of adult leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) which had been losing weight for several months were found to be infected with Cryptosporidium species... The clinical signs were attributed to the presence of one or both types of parasites.
For those of you interested in possible treatments (besides Reptaid) for crypto, there has been limited research into the realm of hyperimmune bovine colostrum treatment (colostrum with antibodies against C. parvum, the mammalian crypto species).
Successful hyperimmune bovine colostrum treatment of Savanna monitors (Varanus exanthematicus) infected with Cryptosporidium sp.
Graczyk TK, Cranfield MR, Bostwick EF.
Therapy based on the protective passive immunity of hyperimmune bovine colostrum (HBC)... was applied to 4 Savanna monitors (Varanus exanthematicus) with gastric Cryptosporidium sp. infections. All lizards were moderately emaciated, and their fecal and gastric lavage samples contained moderate numbers of Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts... Neither feces nor lavages of the HBC-treated lizards contained Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts after the HBC therapy, whereas such samples of a single control lizard remained positive for oocysts. Two of the HBC-treated lizards died spontaneously due to metastasized carcinoma and septicemia of unknown etiology, respectively... The control lizard died spontaneously of septicemia of unknown etiology and contained developmental stages of Cryptosporidium sp. in the gastric region.
Therapeutic efficacy of hyperimmune bovine colostrum treatment against clinical and subclinical Cryptosporidium serpentis infections in captive snakes.
Graczyk TK, Cranfield MR, Helmer P, Fayer R, Bostwick EF.
Therapy based on the protective passive immunity of Hyperimmune Bovine Colostrum (HBC)... was tested for heterologous efficacy in subclinical and clinical infections of 12 captive snakes with C. serpentis. Six gastric HBC treatments... have histologically cleared C. serpentis in three subclinically infected snakes... In all snakes, each subsequent HBC treatment significantly decreased the number of oocysts recovered in gastric lavage eluants (P < 0.03). The treatments... improved clinical signs of infection...
Hyperimmune bovine colostrum treatment of moribund Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) infected with Cryptosporidium sp.
Graczyk TK, Cranfield MR, Bostwick EF.
Therapy based on the protective passive immunity of hyperimmune bovine colostrum (HBC) was applied to 12 moribund Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) infected with Cryptosporidium sp. The geckos were lethargic and moderately to severely emaciated, weighing on average 36% of the baseline body weight value. Seven gastric HBC treatments at 1-week intervals each decreased the relative output of Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts and the prevalence of oocyst-positive fecal specimens. Histologically, after 8 weeks of therapy, seven out of 12 geckos had only single developmental stages of Cryptosporidium sp. in the intestinal epithelium, and three, one and one geckos had low, moderate and high numbers, respectively, of the pathogen developmental stages. The HBC therapy was efficacious in decreasing the parasite load in moribund geckos.
Successful hyperimmune bovine colostrum treatment of Savanna monitors (Varanus exanthematicus) infected with Cryptosporidium sp.
Graczyk TK, Cranfield MR, Bostwick EF.
Therapy based on the protective passive immunity of hyperimmune bovine colostrum (HBC)... was applied to 4 Savanna monitors (Varanus exanthematicus) with gastric Cryptosporidium sp. infections. All lizards were moderately emaciated, and their fecal and gastric lavage samples contained moderate numbers of Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts... Neither feces nor lavages of the HBC-treated lizards contained Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts after the HBC therapy, whereas such samples of a single control lizard remained positive for oocysts. Two of the HBC-treated lizards died spontaneously due to metastasized carcinoma and septicemia of unknown etiology, respectively... The control lizard died spontaneously of septicemia of unknown etiology and contained developmental stages of Cryptosporidium sp. in the gastric region.
Therapeutic efficacy of hyperimmune bovine colostrum treatment against clinical and subclinical Cryptosporidium serpentis infections in captive snakes.
Graczyk TK, Cranfield MR, Helmer P, Fayer R, Bostwick EF.
Therapy based on the protective passive immunity of Hyperimmune Bovine Colostrum (HBC)... was tested for heterologous efficacy in subclinical and clinical infections of 12 captive snakes with C. serpentis. Six gastric HBC treatments... have histologically cleared C. serpentis in three subclinically infected snakes... In all snakes, each subsequent HBC treatment significantly decreased the number of oocysts recovered in gastric lavage eluants (P < 0.03). The treatments... improved clinical signs of infection...
Hyperimmune bovine colostrum treatment of moribund Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) infected with Cryptosporidium sp.
Graczyk TK, Cranfield MR, Bostwick EF.
Therapy based on the protective passive immunity of hyperimmune bovine colostrum (HBC) was applied to 12 moribund Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) infected with Cryptosporidium sp. The geckos were lethargic and moderately to severely emaciated, weighing on average 36% of the baseline body weight value. Seven gastric HBC treatments at 1-week intervals each decreased the relative output of Cryptosporidium sp. oocysts and the prevalence of oocyst-positive fecal specimens. Histologically, after 8 weeks of therapy, seven out of 12 geckos had only single developmental stages of Cryptosporidium sp. in the intestinal epithelium, and three, one and one geckos had low, moderate and high numbers, respectively, of the pathogen developmental stages. The HBC therapy was efficacious in decreasing the parasite load in moribund geckos.
nevinm
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wow that was intense!!! i just read the whole thing!! if i may add my 2 cents with out pissing anyone off i would like to.....
number one.. gregg has no clue what he is talking about at any point in time about anything!!!! hahahahahahahahahaha. i kno this for a fact, i have spoke with him my self more than enough times!!! hahahahahahahahahaha....
ok sorry, joking aside...i know this was all aobut leopards but i do want to throw in that sertian animals need such parasites like crypto, and other things. they need them to help digest food. bearded dragon being the first thing that pops out in my mind because we have WELL over 500 adults. and every single animal we ever had tested was pos for crypto. they really do need it. this is the only thing that leads me to belieave that there may be some sort of healthy amount, that just may not be picked up by tests because its such a small amount.
the only other thing i would like to touch on is what was said about the reptile brain. gregg is correct on that. reptiles lack the parts of the brain that higher animals have. this is why the part of our brain that works purely on insticts is knowen as the reptile brain. this is a major part of psychology, and biology. this isnt about being a reptile psychologist, it is a well known fact. reptiles are fully capable of learned responses, and conditioning (i would like to emphisize on conditioning) but that does not mean they have a fully learning brain. tegues are pretty much the most intellegent reptiles, and i would love to see somone train a tegu to even respond to his name, other than just a condition of .... "there is that other living thing that gives me food"
again guys i post in peace!!! im not doing this to argue with anybody!
like i said, this thread was absolutly riveting, and almost had me on the edge of my seat! lol
thanks
nev
number one.. gregg has no clue what he is talking about at any point in time about anything!!!! hahahahahahahahahaha. i kno this for a fact, i have spoke with him my self more than enough times!!! hahahahahahahahahaha....
ok sorry, joking aside...i know this was all aobut leopards but i do want to throw in that sertian animals need such parasites like crypto, and other things. they need them to help digest food. bearded dragon being the first thing that pops out in my mind because we have WELL over 500 adults. and every single animal we ever had tested was pos for crypto. they really do need it. this is the only thing that leads me to belieave that there may be some sort of healthy amount, that just may not be picked up by tests because its such a small amount.
the only other thing i would like to touch on is what was said about the reptile brain. gregg is correct on that. reptiles lack the parts of the brain that higher animals have. this is why the part of our brain that works purely on insticts is knowen as the reptile brain. this is a major part of psychology, and biology. this isnt about being a reptile psychologist, it is a well known fact. reptiles are fully capable of learned responses, and conditioning (i would like to emphisize on conditioning) but that does not mean they have a fully learning brain. tegues are pretty much the most intellegent reptiles, and i would love to see somone train a tegu to even respond to his name, other than just a condition of .... "there is that other living thing that gives me food"
again guys i post in peace!!! im not doing this to argue with anybody!
like i said, this thread was absolutly riveting, and almost had me on the edge of my seat! lol
thanks
nev
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supperl
G.Man <- ask HJ
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I would like to know these Top breeders. As for me I have Geckos from US and EU top breeders and as stated before Elisa Ziehl Neelson and PCR tests were always negative on all geckos I own and bought from high end breeders.
Yesterday was Hamm and I got 15 new Geckos and all will be tested and I´m sure I will get 15 times negative.
Isn´t it comon to do these tests in the USA, too? I mean to prevend deseas in the collection? In Germany I know no bigger breeder that would let a new animal in without tests like these.
daniellebluetoo
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Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaly?
Now I'm not recommending you go and lick your reptiles. BUt there seems to be some evidence that the CAN be a symbiotic relationship between parasite and host....
I came across an article a few months ago about common parasites in humans HELPING people who had gastric ulcers... i couldn't find the article again, but with a quick google search of "beneficial parasites" this IS what I came up with..... Food for thought at the very least.
Personally I think it's all about checks and balance's.
http://www.reptilerooms.com/index.php?categoryid=23&p142_id=152&p142_dis=3&p142_template=Simple
http://www.livescience.com/animals/070426_good_parasite.html
http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-Can-Parasites-Be-Beneficial-For-Your-Healt-44670.shtml
http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/176/2/
nevinm
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you can argue this with me all you want. i know what a parasite does. but i am telling you some animals like bearded dragons and other vegitarian animals need to have them. like i said i didnt say any of that to argue.
ex... a costomer bought a dragon, took it to the vet, the vet gave it meds to get rid of the crypto because it was such a small amount, and dewormer to get rid of the pinworms, and about 4 weeks later the animal died. but the necropsy came back completely clean.
and thank you danielle.
i believe that when it comes to 95% of life, there has to be a happy medium. i think this topic falls into that 95%. mainly because this is such a case by case issue, and we still need to learn more about Crypto
nev
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Golden Gate Geckos
Mean Old Gecko Lady
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The list of breeders that RT got geckos from for crypto testing will not be published. I do know that those who had crypto in their colonies were notified. Fortunatley, I never received such notification!
You folks in Europe are much better about having your newly acquired geckos tested for parasites, and veterinary care in general. I wish more US geckos keepers were the same.
Sorry to disagree, Nevin. Parasites actually steal the nutrients from the gecko's food. You may be thinking about certain bacteria? All living organisms need a level of 'beneficial' bacteria in their GI systems in order to digest their food properly.
How were these animals tested? Unless it was an AFS or ELISA test, then crypto cannot be diagnosed. These tests are much more expensive than a routine fecal, and testing 500 animals would cost literally thousands of dollars! If it was a routine fecal float or smear, then crypto will not show up. What does appear in routine fecal examinations is a certain level of coccidia, which all reptiles have. Since cryptosporidium is a form of coccidia, many veterinary professionals are easily confused by seeing reptilian coccidia as crypto, and incorrectly diagnose it as such.
Likewise, many veterinary professionals confuse pinworms found in a reptile fecal test as an infection, when they were actually infecting the digested feeders and show up in the feces.
nevinm
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- Location
- bethlehem PA
marcia, coccidia falls into that catagory that i am speaking of. as for the price we have a vet who is an excilent friend. im not going to say his name. but he did mentor under one of the top herp vets in the US, infact that vet's name is on meny of the reptile vetrinary text books. as far as exams, im speaking of fecal, and meny necropsies. we get a "discount" (or whole sale price if you will). also, i never said we had all the animals tested, but the houndreds of animals we did have tested came up possitive. i would like to throw in what danielle said, check out some of those links.
vegtibals are some of the hardest things to digest. i dont see why it i so hard to understand it from that aspect. it is an extreamly minuet amount, but its still there
vegtibals are some of the hardest things to digest. i dont see why it i so hard to understand it from that aspect. it is an extreamly minuet amount, but its still there
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