crypto arguments and comments moved from a different thread...

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Has anyone ever had an adult leo test negative for crypto on either 2 IFA tests (performed at least one month apart) or a single ELISA test.
The diagnostic accuracy of those tests is high enough to say that a negative result conclusively rules out crypto.

Yes, I have... many times! And like I've stated, I have had several full post mortems performed where the GI tract was sectioned and mounted for microscopic evaluation, and no evidence of cryptosporidium was observed.

For those of you who haven't been around for awhile, about 8 years ago I truly thought I had crypto in my colonies. I lost 17 breeders out of 24 that exhibited symptoms of crypto over a period of about 6 months. At the time, the ELISA and IFA tests were fairly new in diagnosing crypto... and VERY expensive! I had every single one of those geckos tested and re-tested for crypto, as well as a total of 5 necropsies performed, and NOTHING showed up!

It wasn't until Dr. Frederic L. Frye (Google him if you don't know who he is) performed the final post mortem that he discovered that my geckos were being poisoned from crickets that were cultured on moldy (aflatoxins!) chicken mash by the cricket supplier.

So, my sick and immune supressed geckos did not have, or delvelop, crypto.. and what was killing them was certainly not contagious. BTW, I was able to rehabilitate the remaining 7 geckos. That is how I developed my slurry!

 

[Gregg M]

Depending on the type of worm seen and the clinical condition of the animal, I do not think deworming all animals is necessary. But some animals do require the assistance of antiparasite medications in order to survive and thrive. You have just been lucky so far.

Lucky??? LOL... Not really... Its having a clear understanding of the situation and doing what needs to be done in order to keep WC imports healthy... In the case or land dwelling vipers, it is better for the animal to give it what it needs and to let its own immune system take care of the issue...

I never claimed that they were. IMO, animals born in captivity, that have been selectively bred for years, are going to be less stressed by remaining in that state than WCs that were removed from their natural environment and shipped halfway around the world to live in a tank in someone's house.

And I am saying that that statement is not true... Being selectively bred does not take the wild nature out of undomesticated animals... If you took any of your "normal" leos and set them free in the wild, they would revert right back to their natual ways and thrive... The stress of captive life is there even in cbb reptiles... Just because an animal is used to being around people and being kept in a cage, this does not mean they like it...

Also, just because your reptiles don't seek out human interaction doesn't mean that all of them don't. At least three of my reptiles (two leopard geckos and a water dragon) recognize me, will respond to their names, and seem to enjoy being petted. I interact with them frequently and they are very tame and relaxed when being handled. Wild reptiles do not respond to human contact that way.

This always makes me laugh... Reptiles are NOT SOCIAL ANIMALS!!! They do not need or want human interaction... Your reptiles do not love you or know who you are... They are used to you being around...

Trust me, if your leos and water dragon had a choice between your hand petting them or being in their natural environment, they are picking the wild. Proven fact, reptiles do not feel emotions because the area of the brain responsible for this is not developed in the reptilan brain... They do not learn their names nor will they respond to a name when called... Calling a reptile "tame" is a bad word choice... Reptiles do not tame down... Did you know that when reptiles are handled they will sometimes build up lactic acid in the muscle fibers which causes them to cramp up and stop moving??? So when an animal is first picked up it runs from hand to hand and all of a sudden it stops, this does not mean it tamed down, it can be the fact that what I mentioned above is happening...

Now, as far as wild reptiles not responding to human interaction goes, it all depends on the species and where in the world it is... I can tell you about places where certain reptile species have no fear of humans and you can basically walk right up to them and pet then on the back... I have wild caught reptiles that do very well in a captive environment... Infact most anything I have that was wild caught is just as used to human interaction as any CBB animal I have...

I don't know who you are talking to, but it isn't the majority of people on this forum. I fully appreciate that you have a different idea of top notch care than I do. That does not mean that I am taking care of my animals incorrectly or that they are not healthy. Nor does it mean that well cared for animals (like Kelli's) cannot die from cryptosporidium.

How do you know who keeps what in what type of conditions??? The only one you can speak for is yourself.. I am not saying you are doing anything wrong or you are not caring for them properly... I am just saying that the standards seen in most caresheets are very broad and some are even sub-par... I do my own thing based on my personal experience and the experiences of people who keep their animals in a similar manner as I do...

Honestly, caresheets are to basic and general... It boils down to the fact that when an animal is cared for properly, parasites should not be an issue... The immune systems should be able to put the situation in check in captivity the same as it does in the wild... Parasites are not killers... Infact it would be non-productive for a parasite to be deadly... That would kind of go against the natural way things go... If the host dies, so does the parasite... Not a good thing for specie presevation, is it???

 

[Gregg M]

Just for the record, I have never had any animal of mine tested for crypto... I have only ever had simple fecals done... Then again, I never had any animals dwindle away to nothing and die...
Most of what I have been talking about are my thoughts because of feild studies on crypto in the WILD... Most of you will be quite suprized on the number of wild reptiles found, carry crypto... Species ranging from little rough green snakes to monitor lizards... If you do not want to look these studies up, I can post a link... I do not know the true statics of captive animals but from what RT says, there were animals aquired from some "top" leopard gecko breeders that had crypto but did not have any signs of having the parasite...

Marcia... I hate when you capitalize ASS in assume... LOL...
I have a question for you as well...
Why do some leos die from crypto in a very short time while some can have it for a year or more without showing any signs??? I mean this fact alone must mean something, right???

Debbie, I dont really have anything to say to you because you are just quoting what others are saying... And you are not even quoting me correctly... I guess you are just ASSuming... LOL

 

[daniellebluetoo]

not to hijack or anything but............

Marcia, I would LOVE to hear about your experience with aflotoxins.
I think it is a VERY misrepresented threat to our geckos, that I never hear anything about.


Please please PLEASE will ya post Marcia:main_laugh:

I'll resume to the post topic now.

Kelli, i would love to read your story/experience with crypto as well, would you mind posting about that? I think it would benefit all of us to learn especially about the younger or less experienced herp keepers that have not had the tragedy to deal with it. Maybe add it to Marcia's sticky????



* Question, I've been looking into purchasing supplies for parasite testing of my own group, is crypto something that can be tested for by the layman without insanely expensive extensive equipment?> Any one do this?

Thanks guys!

 

[dprince]

Debbie, I dont really have anything to say to you because you are just quoting what others are saying... And you are not even quoting me correctly... I guess you are just ASSuming... LOL

I'm quoting what Marcia stated because she had a chance to respond to your querry before I did. Seemed a bit redundant to state it all again, but perhaps that is the easiest way to see it all at once. Here is your response, my response, your response, and my response again - maybe this will make it more clear?

I never said "ALL" carried... It is however, a high %... Do you think for one second that any huge breeder never had some animals die of crypto??? You are kidding yourself if you do... No ones entire collection has been taken out due to crypto... Give me one example... The best breeders you know have animals carrying crypto... Some die from it, some do not... Some show signs, some never will... A leopard gecko can be a-symptomatic for its entire life and still carry it...

If your animals are cared for properly the chances of them loading up with the parasite to the point it kills them is very low... Once the immune system is weakend, the parasites have a chance to rise in number... The thing is, an animal needs to be in real bad shape before the a parasite can take over... Thats why the majority of animals that have been found with crypto are store bought or imports that have not had good husbandry in a long time...

Do you have every animal tested for crypto when it comes to you??? I doubt it... So if you got a gecko with crypto that never shows signs of having it, you would never know...

My findings have nothing to do with what Ron says... In any case, do you think Ron pulled his info from his rear??? I doubt it... Ron has been doing this longer and way more successfully than anyone you have ever met in your life... He does not do just leopard geckos you know...

Ok, you listed a guy named Tom and Kelli Hammack... Only one of those people I know and respect, obviously its Kelli... Those are 2 people out of how many large scale breeders, keepers, and importers??? Remember, all it takes is one infected animal to spread crypto... If it was that deadly, we would not have the amount of animals we do in captivity..

You say you have had countless necropsies done... I am sure the amount of necropsies you have had done is quite countable number 1... Number 2 you can not tell me that every animal that you had die was tested for crypto... Like I said, if the animals are properly cared for the animals own immune system will either fight off the parasite or keep its numbers down so low that it will be just about unditectable and will not affect the animal...

So which is it Gregg? Geckos already have crypto and then someone doesn't take care of them properly (poor husbandry) and they die, or they're infected and they die? It doesn't work both ways.

And I'm afraid if you do a quick search on google, and some reptile forums, you will find people posting stories of losing their entire collections to crypto, not to mention the two "big breeders" who Marcia already named. Maybe someone's collection of 20-30 geckos isn't significant to some, but to them, I don't even want to imagine the devastation.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information about MOST reptiles carrying crypto, but here's a chat log from a reputable vet on the subject. http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?p=66252 Seems you participated in the chat, but perhaps didn't like the answers he gave? Afterall, he's only been working on reptiles 20+ years and keeping them for over 50. If you have a different, more reliable source, I'd love to see it.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here Debbie... Animals CAN CARRY crypto without it ever affecting them especially when cared for properly... When infected animals are not cared for properly they can die from crypto or any other parasite for that matter... Not sure how you can determine how the natural world works... It does work both ways and 10 different other ways...

Gregg, sometimes I think you are more concerned about being 'right' than making your opinions clear, LOL! If you look back over your many statements, many of them are contradictory, or at least ambiguous at best.

OK, so let's say that ALL leopard geckos aready have cryptosporidium in their systems, and it does not become symptomatic until they are stressed or are lacking in husbandry. This causes the crypto to begin reproducing to levels that are at clinical stages of infection. Then the gecko dies. This is well-known a fact with ANY pathenogenic infections.

The contradiction is that if ALL leopard geckos have crypto, then how could a clinically infected gecko infect other 'un-stressed' or properly cared-for geckos if they already have it? These geckos have been doing well for years, and then they come into contact with crypto infected feces and water, and suddenly get sick and die. It just doesn't add up!

{sic}

So, the confusion is, that if all geckos have crypto anyway, how can they catch it from a known infected animal? They already had it, right? It is utter nonsense to make these unfounded ASSumptions, especially when the huge majority of reptile veterniarians and pathologists say it isn't the case. If all leopard geckos have crypto, then surely ALL of them would wind up dying from the disease eventually... most likely sooner than later. By virtue of the number of 10+ year old geckos in people's collections (many as high as 20+ years), this simply is not the case.

Oh, and I'll post the actual links to your actual posts so that I can't be accused of quoting you incorrectly.

http://www.geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=293321&postcount=4

http://www.geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=293342&postcount=7

http://www.geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=293675&postcount=13

Also, if you don't like Marcia capitalizing the ass in assuming, I would recommend that you refrain from doing it yourself.

 

[Gregg M]

Also, if you don't like Marcia capitalizing the ass in assuming, I would recommend that you refrain from doing it yourself.

Thanks for the recommendation but you fell right into it Deb... It was obviously said in a joking manner number one... Number two, My statement to Marcia was for Marcia, not you... She is a grown woman who can answer my comments to her... I doubt she needs you to answer for her...

I cant believe I even have to explain what was obviouly a joke, to you... Trying to lighten things up does not seem to work with certain people... Maybe you should take a big deep breath and think before you post and start quoting all over the thread again... That is my recommendation to you...

 

[dprince]

Thanks for the recommendation but you fell right into it Deb... It was obviously said in a joking manner number one... Number two, My statement to Marcia was for Marcia, not you... She is a grown woman who can answer my comments to her... I doubt she needs you to answer for her...

I cant believe I even have to explain what was obviouly a joke, to you... Trying to lighten things up does not seem to work with certain people... Maybe you should take a big deep breath and think before you post and start quoting all over the thread again... That is my recommendation to you...

The comment was made to ME about assumptions, Gregg. If it was in response to Marcia, then it should have been - oh yeah, in response to Marcia. :main_rolleyes: You're right, she does just fine answering for herself - which is not what I was doing, I promise.

You are not going to make me out to be somebody that has to have simple things explained to them because you are trying to distract from the fact that you are all over the board on this thread, Gregg. If you have some personal issues with me that you'd like to discuss, I will request that they be taken to PM, and kept out of this thread. Thanks.

 

[Gregg M]

Remember this Deb???

OK.
Perhaps you didn't say "all leos have crypto", but your above statement sure makes it sound as if this were the case, or pretty close to it. :main_huh:

So if this is not misquoting me, what is??? It was obvious I was being misquoted in this entire thread....

 

[dprince]

Remember this Deb???

So if this is not misquoting me, what is??? It was obvious I was being misquoted in this entire thread....

Perhaps you didn't say "all leos have crypto", but your above statement sure makes it sound as if this were the case, or pretty close to it. :main_huh:

You'll notice that I conceeded (see that - admitted that you were correct) that perhaps you didn't say 100%, but you implied pretty darned close. How is that misquoting you?

And here's the quote I'm speaking of:

In the wild, you will be hard pressed to find a reptile that does not have or carry crypto... These parasites and other parasites are a natural part of life as a reptile... The ONLY thing that makes any parasite a danger is improper husbandry which causes immune systems to fail due to stresses of the reptile not getting what they need... This could be from not being heated properly, not getting the proper food, and/or not getting the proper supplements and immune boosting vits and minerals... It boils down to husbandry, not the parasite...

Did you actually READ what you wrote? In YOUR OWN WORDS, you are insinuating that most, if not all wild reptiles carry crypto. And then you backtrack. And then you fall on "well, gee, I never said 100% of all geckos carry crypto - gee, I've been misquoted this entire thread."

Information for which you STILL have provided no proof, facts, links, or anything else to support your claim. Except that Ron Tremper said it, and his whole colony of geckos hasn't been wiped out, so that must make it true, right?

 

[Gregg M]

Debbie, Based on FIELD STUDIES of crypto in the WILD, you will see that a large number of reptiles collected had crypto...

Again, you misquote me... Who said because Ron said it, it had to be true??? I never even read his book so how can I quote the man or agree with what he says???

I am not back tracking or falling on any words... It is painfully obvious that I was quoted as saying ALL geckos have crypto when those words never left my finger tips... I am saying I never said it because, gee, I NEVER DID!!!!

Way to take the thread off topic!!!

 

[KelliH]

I agree with Gregg, I think crypto is way more common in captive leos than you would think.

 

[OSUgecko]

If you took any of your "normal" leos and set them free in the wild, they would revert right back to their natual ways and thrive... The stress of captive life is there even in cbb reptiles...

How do you know this? Have you ever heard of someone who released their CBB leos back into their natural environment and studied their survival time? I doubt it. This is an opinion, not a fact, as so many of your statements have been. I doubt that the CBBs would "thrive" the way wild geckos do. They would have little acquired immunity and would know next to nothing about predators.

Your reptiles do not love you or know who you are... They are used to you being around... Trust me, if your leos and water dragon had a choice between your hand petting them or being in their natural environment, they are picking the wild. Proven fact, reptiles do not feel emotions because the area of the brain responsible for this is not developed in the reptilan brain... They do not learn their names nor will they respond to a name when called...

Wow, you're a reptile psychologist, and a neurologist, too! Your talents are truly astounding. I wish I knew what my reptiles were thinking as well as you do. :main_rolleyes: So my reptiles "don't know who I am", but they are "used to me"? Gee, guess I would describe that as recognition.

I would like to know what your source is for "proving" the lack of reptile emotion... scientists have said lots of things about the brain in the past that have later proven to be completely false. I don't have a lot of faith in your sources so far.

You seem intent on distorting the record here. I never said that my herps "loved" me. However, when I put my hand in my leos' enclosure, at least two of them will regularly step into my hand on their own accord and appear to be enjoying my touch. They do not run from me or avoid me although they have the option to do so. I interpret that as they are at the least not stressed in my presence and that they possibly enjoy it. I have never seen them "freeze" up due to lactic acid buildup (and would also like to know where you got that information from and the context of it.).

I am having a hard time taking you seriously because you keep making broad, condescending, incorrect statements, then contradicting them.

 

[KelliH]

By the way, it is going to dissapoint me greatly to have to close this thread, but I will do it if we can't all stay on topic without resorting to insults. Everyone take a chill pill, this is an important topic but it's not something to get angry about.

 

[dprince]

Debbie, Based on FIELD STUDIES of crypto in the WILD, you will see that a large number of reptiles collected had crypto...

Again, you misquote me... Who said because Ron said it, it had to be true??? I never even read his book so how can I quote the man or agree with what he says???

I am not back tracking or falling on any words... It is painfully obvious that I was quoted as saying ALL geckos have crypto when those words never left my finger tips... I am saying I never said it because, gee, I NEVER DID!!!!

Way to take the thread off topic!!!

You are correct, you never said that regarding Ron Tremper, I apologize. I just took the following quote and misinterpreted it. My bad.

My findings have nothing to do with what Ron says... In any case, do you think Ron pulled his info from his rear??? I doubt it... Ron has been doing this longer and way more successfully than anyone you have ever met in your life... He does not do just leopard geckos you know...

As for saying that you said 100% of geckos have it, I've already conceeded that you didn't say that. I think in two different quotes in this thread now...........so............:main_huh:

But some of what you've said IS contradictory, and I'm just trying to clarify some of your points.

 

[Gregg M]

Deb, now that I read more of my own writting, I can see how some might think that some statements are contradictory... I am truely sorry if any of my "ranting" was confusing... I still stand by what I say though in that it is way more common than some people think.. And it is even more common in wild populations... And I feel that when animals are cared for properly, their immune systems keep crypto and many other parasites in check... I will get the links I am refering to as soon as I find them...

I am also sorry if you took some of my statements personally... You are a good person to have in these forums... I dont want you or anyone to think I have a problem with you personally...

 

[LeapinLizards]

I'm glad this discussion has gone on...I've been following it the whole time. You all bring up very valid, interesting points.

 

[dprince]

Deb, now that I read more of my own writting, I can see how some might think that some statements are contradictory... I am truely sorry if any of my "ranting" was confusing... I still stand by what I say though in that it is way more common than some people think.. And it is even more common in wild populations... And I feel that when animals are cared for properly, their immune systems keep crypto and many other parasites in check... I will get the links I am refering to as soon as I find them...

I am also sorry if you took some of my statements personally... You are a good person to have in these forums... I dont want you or anyone to think I have a problem with you personally...

Thank you very much, Gregg. I don't have a problem with you personally, either, and I hope that I didn't come across that way (but looking back, I may have.....) If I did, you have my sincere apologies. :main_yes:

I do very much look forward to reading your links/information on this subject. It's an important one to discuss and be aware of.

 

[Gregg M]

How do you know this? Have you ever heard of someone who released their CBB leos back into their natural environment and studied their survival time? I doubt it. This is an opinion, not a fact, as so many of your statements have been. I doubt that the CBBs would "thrive" the way wild geckos do. They would have little acquired immunity and would know next to nothing about predators.

Ok, there may be nothing I can present that is spacifically documented on leos but there are hundreds of other species it has been done with in all orders from insects to primates... Remember, reptiles and most other animals do not "learn" about predators... They instinctivly know what is what... The fact that something is bigger than they are is enough to trigger a flight or fight responce... Toatally instinctive..

Wow, you're a reptile psychologist, and a neurologist, too! Your talents are truly astounding. I wish I knew what my reptiles were thinking as well as you do. :main_rolleyes: So my reptiles "don't know who I am", but they are "used to me"? Gee, guess I would describe that as recognition.

Yeah it recognizes you the same as it recognizes the landscape... Your leos are not thinking, oh cool, here comes [insert name] to pick me up, pet and cuddle me...

I would like to know what your source is for "proving" the lack of reptile emotion... scientists have said lots of things about the brain in the past that have later proven to be completely false. I don't have a lot of faith in your sources so far.

Look, I am not doing your homework for you... SCIENTIFIC FACT: Reptilian brains function in a primative manner... They do not have devloped lobes or other areas of the brain where functions such as emotion and reasoning are developed and sorted... They do not think about doing something... They do based on instict... Instinctive behavior and social behavior are on different ends of the neuroligical stick...

You seem intent on distorting the record here. I never said that my herps "loved" me. However, when I put my hand in my leos' enclosure, at least two of them will regularly step into my hand on their own accord and appear to be enjoying my touch. They do not run from me or avoid me although they have the option to do so. I interpret that as they are at the least not stressed in my presence and that they possibly enjoy it. I have never seen them "freeze" up due to lactic acid buildup (and would also like to know where you got that information from and the context of it.).

Again, Gregg does not do other peoples homework... Your reptiles do not "like" to be picked up, poked, petted, or snuggled... You are basically landscape with a 98 degree hotspot... As far as the lactic acid in the muscle fibers goes, you can watch any episode of the croc hunter and I am sure the topic will come up on the show somewhere... Besides that, you can do a simple search on google and find an article or 5... Not being stresses over something and liking something are not the same... I do not like to go to the dentist, but I do not stress over it either..

I am having a hard time taking you seriously because you keep making broad, condescending, incorrect statements, then contradicting them.

Good, we are even then...:main_thumbsup:

If you want to get more into this, maybe starting a new thread might be in order...

 

[OSUgecko]

Greg, I never said that I cuddled my reptiles or felt like they had an emotional attachment to me. I simply was trying to say that I don't feel like they are stressed out in my presence. You are taking my statements WAY out of context and places that I never intended them to go.

You keep telling us that there are all of these documents out there stating the things that you are asserting. I do not think that you should be insulted by me asking you what they are. If I was asked something similar I would provide it. I am quite capable of "Googling," but that does not tell me which source you were citing.

I have been trying to have a professional tone throughout this thread. I did get a bit upset in my last post because I was tired of the attitude I was reading in your posts. I still feel that way and I hope you will be more civil in the future.

 

[Gregg M]

I have been trying to have a professional tone throughout this thread. I did get a bit upset in my last post because I was tired of the attitude I was reading in your posts. I still feel that way and I hope you will be more civil in the future.

Well, you do not know me... I can see why you think I am giving an attitude... Trust me, I am not... You may not want to take me seriously... That is fine... I can tell you that I have been keeping and breeding reptiles for 20+ years... I am no idiot that just spits out misinformation... I may however play devils advocate at times just to get a different perspective out there... With time, you will see I am not all bad and actually do have some pretty good insight on keeping reptiles in captivity...

Sorry if I was being less than nice to you...