Curly Tail Leo

[PDoogle]

The girl was free off of CL - I picked her up last night for my wife. She has a pug and she LOVED the curly tail. The girl I got her from said she got her from an the Portland Expo (not sure how accurate that info is, but have no reason to not believe her) She was not a breeder, and only had 2 leopards, this one and 1 regular missing toes (she said she got her as a rescue) both females, no obviously not breeding em. She seems to be in good health, needs to put on some weight, she's in quarantine for the next 60 at least, but I found her interesting. The brighter orange pics are from the girl i got her from, the lighter are from my horrible camera taken today.

I checked this out this thread on this before....

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=43198

How many people are seeing Leos like this? Any more info on the lifespans, etc?

So who has curly tails...are people actually producing them, and who has info about life spans / additional genetic defects, etc.? Whats the newest info? This doesn't look like it's from the same stock as pictures in the other thread....

And although I doubt I would breed her...I must admit if my wife had the choice between a curly tail and a non-curly tail, she would pick the curly tail every time, I'm assuming she's not the only one that feels that way. Personally not sure if I find it attractive yet or not.

Also, it instantly made me think of the Silver Fox Project done so many years ago in Russia...It's interesting to ponder.

I checked this out this thread on this before....

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=43198

How many people are seeing Leos like this? Any more info on the lifespans, etc?

Also, it instantly made me think of the Silver Fox Project done so many years ago in Russia...It's interesting to ponder.

So who has curly tails...are people actually producing them, and who has info about life spans / additional genetic defects, etc.?

 

[Dog Shrink]

Looks to me like the tail might have been broken at some point. Did the girl mention whether or not the person she got her from at the expo mentioned if she hatched like this or if it was a traumatic incident that caused it?

 

[latshki]

this is a genetic mutation that is passed on from its parents and likely not from a broken tail

 

[JordanAng420]

It's a beautiful gecko, but in the interest of being a responsible herp keeper and/or breeder, you MUST not breed this gecko under ANY circumstances.

 

[PDoogle]

It's a beautiful gecko, but in the interest of being a responsible herp keeper and/or breeder, you MUST not breed this gecko under ANY circumstances.

Not planning on it, I'm not interested in breeding any Leos, My wife just wanted this one.

Playing devil's advocate, why shouldn't you breed such a gecko? I mean if people like curly tails...what the problem with breeding curly tailed geckos?

 

[PDoogle]

Looks to me like the tail might have been broken at some point. Did the girl mention whether or not the person she got her from at the expo mentioned if she hatched like this or if it was a traumatic incident that caused it?

Definitely not a broken tail. It's curled, like a pug tail. I've seen some other pictures of curly tailed geckos, and even a guy who was trying to prove it out as a new morph. There has been some debate on the ethics of doing so.

 

[JordanAng420]

Here's my take...

Folks should breed to try and stregnthen whatever morphs or geckos you work with and their lines. We breed for gorgeous colors, carrot tails, and all different types of eyes to try and IMPROVE a gecko and make it the best it can be.

Breeding these physically deformed geckos, weather it be a curly tail, six toes, no eyelids, an underbite, etc...is NOT improving that particular line at all. It's like throwing sewage into the gene pool.

And yes, people DO like them...that's another reason they should not be bred OR adopted out. The more hands they pass through, the greater chance they have of being bred.

One should do whatever they can in an effort to keep the gene pool as clean as possible.

 

[Jordan]

Not planning on it, I'm not interested in breeding any Leos, My wife just wanted this one.

Playing devil's advocate, why shouldn't you breed such a gecko? I mean if people like curly tails...what the problem with breeding curly tailed geckos?

Because a deformity on the outside means very likely a deformity on the inside.
So don't want to produce more deformed unhealthy geckos.

 

[prettyinpink]

Jordan very well stated

As the others stated a curly tail may be cute, but it's considered a deformity 'not normal' which we don't want to mix up in strong lines.

 

[PDoogle]

Here's my take...

Folks should breed to try and stregnthen whatever morphs or geckos you work with and their lines. We breed for gorgeous colors, carrot tails, and all different types of eyes to try and IMPROVE a gecko and make it the best it can be.

Breeding these physically deformed geckos, weather it be a curly tail, six toes, no eyelids, an underbite, etc...is NOT improving that particular line at all. It's like throwing sewage into the gene pool.

And yes, people DO like them...that's another reason they should not be bred OR adopted out. The more hands they pass through, the greater chance they have of being bred.

One should do whatever they can in an effort to keep the gene pool as clean as possible.

I would agree with you, but in the interest of debate....

One could say that selective breeding is detrimental to the gene pool, as we are purposefully causing recessive alleles to become frequent in numbers that would NEVER been seen in nature, as we are effectively halting any form of natural selection except for that based on pure phenotypical expression.

Albinism has a number of know genetic problems associated with it, yet it is almost undoubtedly selected for with any popular reptile. Another example is giant strains, causing a species to become unusually large based on breeding has detrimental affects, and I won't even bring up the Enigma debate.

For that matter a curly tail could be a strictly recessive allele thats been hid in wild populations at an extremely low rate, but as we selectively breed other recessive alleles, the curly tail becomes present. This would have little to no effect on the well being of the animal.

If an animal lacked eyelids, yes, thats a problem that causes it distress through it's life and should not be bred for. Curly tails, however, offer no harm to the species well-being, and the notion that because there is a curly tail there are internal problems is one founded strictly in misinformation. I mean, we have selectively bred dogs, and cats, to have extreme mutations, I've yet to hear anyone say breeding a pug, english bulldog, etc, etc, etc is unethical. Pugs exist strictly because we like the way the look, they are not a working breed, and have never been bred selectively for anything other than phenotype, yet we readily accept them. Why is the curly tail on a gecko so different?

Let the comments commence!

 

[prettyinpink]

We usually don't like to bring dogs into the matter. If you're going to go that route there's tons of dogs...like your PUG that have problems, from being bred like that.

 

[PDoogle]

We usually don't like to bring dogs into the matter. If you're going to go that route there's tons of dogs...like your PUG that have problems, from being bred like that.

How can you have a debate on selective breeding without bringing dogs into it? There has never been a selective breeding campaign more intensive in history.

And yes, pugs have problems - as do MOST other breeds of dogs, the older the bloodline, typically the more problems, caused from changing the frequency of present alleles unnaturally. EXACTLY what you are doing by breeding for one phenotype in geckos. No one seems to have a problem with that.....

Again, this is in the interest of debate, so please don't egg my house or something.

 

[Tony C]

If you use the search feature to bring up older threads on the topic you will find a story from one breeder on their curly tail project, the second or third generation hatched with severe spinal deformities and all had to be culled.

Not planning on it, I'm not interested in breeding any Leos, My wife just wanted this one.

Playing devil's advocate, why shouldn't you breed such a gecko? I mean if people like curly tails...what the problem with breeding curly tailed geckos?

 

[PDoogle]

If you use the search feature to bring up older threads on the topic you will find a story from one breeder on their curly tail project, the second or third generation hatched with severe spinal deformities and all had to be culled.

Can you post the thread for us? I've been unable to locate it! I think it would be great information for everyone to see / discuss.

 

[Dog Shrink]

How can you have a debate on selective breeding without bringing dogs into it? There has never been a selective breeding campaign more intensive in history.

And yes, pugs have problems - as do MOST other breeds of dogs, the older the bloodline, typically the more problems, caused from changing the frequency of present alleles unnaturally. EXACTLY what you are doing by breeding for one phenotype in geckos. No one seems to have a problem with that.....

Again, this is in the interest of debate, so please don't egg my house or something.

This one I have to disagree with. The old primitive breeds have very little congenital defects. It is tne more modern breeds that are the ones that you see with more problems. The older the bloodline the more defect would all depend on how that breeder chooses to run their breeding program. I have seen quite young bloodlines say in labs or goldens that are completely screwed up because of constant line breeding to maintain type insted of that breeder taking the chance of outcrossing to another dog that compliments their program. Any intelligent breeder would never line breed more than 2 generaltions with out outcrossing to prevent genetic defect from showing up. Where you run into a lot of problems is these new "designer breeds" people crossing 2 incompatible breeds which generally brings out the worst in both imo. I have yet to see a completely healthy designer breed free of genetic defect.

 

[JordanAng420]

Tony, I think the OP actually cited the particular thread you are speaking of in his first post...the one with the tangerine curly tailed geckos...

LOTS of pertinent information was provided in that thread...not sure why there's a question as far as why it's "unethical" ?

EDIT: Nevermind...that was a different thread sorry.

 

[PDoogle]

This one I have to disagree with. The old primitive breeds have very little congenital defects. It is tne more modern breeds that are the ones that you see with more problems. The older the bloodline the more defect would all depend on how that breeder chooses to run their breeding program. I have seen quite young bloodlines say in labs or goldens that are completely screwed up because of constant line breeding to maintain type insted of that breeder taking the chance of outcrossing to another dog that compliments their program. Any intelligent breeder would never line breed more than 2 generaltions with out outcrossing to prevent genetic defect from showing up. Where you run into a lot of problems is these new "designer breeds" people crossing 2 incompatible breeds which generally brings out the worst in both imo. I have yet to see a completely healthy designer breed free of genetic defect.

I agree with you the designer breeds, but I stand by my original point of older dog breeds have issues. If you look at the intelligence dog ranking system, compared to the age of the breed, there is without a doubt a HUGE correlation. For example here is a short list of the oldest dog breeds know through genetic testing. Next to the names is their intelligence ranking. Keep in mind the dog intelligence ranking has 79 breeds listed, of the 6 oldest breeds, they ALL are in the bottom 11 rankings. I would say there is a strong correlation intelligence and any other number of issues.

afghan 79
chow chow 76
lhaso ops 68
pekinese 73
shitzu 70
besengi 78

 

[Dog Shrink]

I agree with you the designer breeds, but I stand by my original point of older dog breeds have issues. If you look at the intelligence dog ranking system, compared to the age of the breed, there is without a doubt a HUGE correlation. For example here is a short list of the oldest dog breeds know through genetic testing. Next to the names is their intelligence ranking. Keep in mind the dog intelligence ranking has 79 breeds listed, of the 6 oldest breeds, they ALL are in the bottom 11 rankings. I would say there is a strong correlation intelligence and any other number of issues.

afghan 79
chow chow 76
lhaso ops 68
pekinese 73
shitzu 70
besengi 78

All I'm going to say on this little factoid is you need to do more research on the intelligence of dog breeds and which are the truest oldest breeds. Greyhounds predate all of them and are even mentioned in teh bible yet I don't see it on your comparison but in lieu of taking your thread off topic I would love to debate this with you in private if you would like the truth on intelligence and dog breeds. 3 of the 6 you mentioned have been so overbred and in-bred that it is unfair to even consider them in this test, not to mention using dna testing to age a breed is prob. about as accurate as dna testing to determine breed.

 

[PDoogle]

All I'm going to say on this little factoid is you need to do more research on the intelligence of dog breeds and which are the truest oldest breeds. Greyhounds predate all of them and are even mentioned in teh bible yet I don't see it on your comparison but in lieu of taking your thread off topic I would love to debate this with you in private if you would like the truth on intelligence and dog breeds. 3 of the 6 you mentioned have been so overbred and in-bred that it is unfair to even consider them in this test, not to mention using dna testing to age a breed is prob. about as accurate as dna testing to determine breed.

LOL. totally off topic! Here is a list of the oldest dog breeds due to DNA evidence, this is what I used and all 6 are on the list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_dog_breeds

and I don't claim to be a dog expert, but I'm just using that one fact (I'm sure there are many more) to point to the issue of selectively breeding for phenotype over generations. The overall intelligence isn't the issue, just the fact that selectively breeding tends to reduce alleles of a population and cause issues.

again, I don't doubt you are much more knowledgeable about dogs, I was just using one fact to illustrate my overall point

back to topic

 

[Mel&Keith]

Here's another thread on the topic - here.