Do you love geckos? No, really though, do you?

[csdelisle]

A few months ago, after adopting my first Leopard Gecko, I was excited to be a part of these forums so I could communicate with others that have geckos all around the world. It has been so nice visiting GeckoForums.net and recieving my daily dose of hatchlings, terrariums, and stories about geckos.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that not all is good in these forums. It seems that a significant majority of people in these forums only see these geckos as 'projects'. Yeah, you say you love geckos and become obsessed, but if you truly had a passion for these small creatures than wouldn't you want them to live life to the highest potential? I click on posts and see rooms full of racks with geckos living in small shoeboxes. Seeing these leopard geckos living in a plastic container with a paper towel floor and a butter container hideout is repulsive. Really? Whether you're a human or a worm, you don't deserve to live in a shoebox.

Not only this, but I see them used as breeding machines. Whatever morph is the most expensive or 'rare' is bred, and the babies are sold for high prices as tiny hatchlings. If the small leopard gecko has the slightest problem (tail kink (OH MY), missing toe (OH NO!), blind in one eye (KILL IT!), then I see people suggesting 'culling' which is a less-serious word for 'killing' these poor lizards. So the baby has a little 'bent' or 'short' tail; what's the big deal? It's not fair that the baby will be put down. Heaven forbid our little 'project' has a slight tail deforminity. I guarantee you most of them will live a healthy and happy life (if provided..).

I see gambling used with the geckos, trading, overbreeding, culling, and so many things that are despicable to see as a gecko lover. I recently read a post on how to kill a gecko using a 'small, round, hard object' just because it 'may be sick'.

I think it is time that people really start showing that they truly care for leopard geckos. It's so hard to see these animals shacked up in these plastic bins all their life. It seems as though the only thing people in these forums care about is their 'next gecko' or the money aspect. Overall, I just wanted to express my opinion about some people on this forum. All I can say is that you never know when you're leopard gecko or lizard is happy, but one can only assume that it isn't having a well-lived life if it's not living in a natural-like environment. I know most people will disagree with me and oppose what I have said because of ignorance and guilt, but it is entirely clear that many of the geckos (not all!) on this forum are living in poor conditions.

 

[bman123]

You know there is a rant and raves section don't you? That is clearly where your post belongs, maybe we will get lucky and a mod can move this to it's proper section.

 

[acpart]

I can definitely appreciate some of the sentiments in your post and the concerns that fuel them. I'm sure there are people in our world who are single minded and uncaring, but I have a feeling you are tending to stereotype and generalize somewhat. I won't deal with all the issues (it's very late here on the east coast) but I will give you one example: you express concern about geckos being kept in "drawers" like merchandise rather than in naturalistic settings. I also prefer to keep my geckos in open display cages and have a rack only for overflow hatchlings and fat tail hatchlings. I do know from reading extensive discussions on the forums that there are people who, through their own experience, see the rack system as beneficial to the geckos in terms of their desire to hide and not be overstimulated. I'm not taking sides here about whether a rack or a more naturalistic setting is better, but I am making the point that some geckos are kept in racks because of care and concern about their well-being, not because of a desire to store a lot of "stock" in a small space.

I really believe that you made this post out of your love and caring for geckos, but I encourage you to explore the possibilities that some of the practices you don't like so much are also being done out of the same caring and love but from a different perspective.

Aliza

 

[Riyo]

Great post, Aliza

OP (csdelisle), your post leaves little room for any opposing view points. People may disagree with you out of guilt and ignorance... really now? Many of the people who keep reptiles in racks have been doing this longer than you (or I) have been alive.

I keep my animals in racks and in display cages. I have had an assortment of 'problem animals' that when kept in naturalistic tanks were stressed and would not eat. They had proper conditions in these enclosures. When I moved them into the rack it was almost an overnight change. These past 'problem animals' began eating, growing, and thriving. They no longer exhibited behavior associated with stress. I feel like I've done the best thing for my animals.

I do love geckos, as well as other animals. Yes, I do breed them. But they are also my pets and what keeps me happy and sane. I take in rescues and rehabilitate. I've adopted deformed animals before as pet only animals and they are still quite happily with me.

Yes, I've even culled animals out of love. It is not an easy thing to do, but often it is the kindest thing you can do for some creatures. One was a rescue who was going down hill after a long fight and clearly suffering. Another was a healthy young enigma who began displaying terrible "enigma syndrome" and could barely walk despite my best efforts.

So, before you start attacking people, take some time to listen to their point of view and learn why they do the things they do.. take a step off of that high horse, please.

 

[bman123]

You are kinda blowing this out of proportion. It is much easy to clean thus making it safer to house in a tub plus it makes the Leo feel safer as it's not over exposed. I do see where you are coming from but it would be mission impossible for a big breeder to keep all the geckos they have in tanks.

Without the big breeders we wouldn't have all these awesome animals that we have today. I tip my hat and give big breeders alot of respect. It is a full time job doing what they do and they have alot of love and respect for these amazing animals.

Without the breeders how would we have leopard geckos? They would be wild caught and sold only in pet stores. A pet store is the worst reptile keeping in terms of health and house keeping. They sell sick animals all the time and talk about cruel that was a wild animal at one time, now it's inside a tank for the rest of it's life.

I see nothing wrong with keeping leos in tubs,they never seen the wild so they don't know the wild. If the breeders are bad in your eyes then theoretically you are just as bad as your not keeping them in a wild naturalistic enclosure either.

 

[OhioGecko]

I know most people will disagree with me and oppose what I have said because of ignorance and guilt, but it is entirely clear that many of the geckos (not all!) on this forum are living in poor conditions.

1. Where did you get your Leopard geckos from?
2. How are you currently housing your geckos?
3. How do you suggest Leopard Geckos be kept in captivity?

 

[Smidget88]

I can appreciate your point of view, In other ways I cant. I hate rack systems myself, but that is because i love decorating tanks and making them little habitat homes! However, I do not have the large number of geckos some of the people on here have. A plastic bin sounds horirble and rediculous, but think of it in a health perspective. It is more convenient to clean a bunch of tubs than to take heavier glass tanks and clean. And think from a realistic stand point if you have one tank spot cleaning takes 2 minutes tops and thats on a bad day. If you have 30+ geckos all in their own "tank" your removing lids digging in substrate and have to move all over the place. While sometimes racks seem more convenient for the owners, it is also beneficial for the animal they arent as heavily stimulated, and they arent as likely to sit in their own filth as long creating a more healthy environment.

Are these animals over bred? Maybe some are however most breeders i know ESPECIALLY ON HERE LOVE their geckos as much as you and I love our own and rotate breeders from year to year so they do get a break. Along with the subject of culling, It is necessary for severe enigma syndrome the animal can eventually starve to death, now.. would you rather be starved or put out of your misery? A tail kink and missing toes? well i would not cull in that case i would keep them as pets only. There is a reason people dont like "visual" defects, they are sometimes signs of genetic health problems, and some choose to cull to prevent other not so honorable breeders from continuing on this vicious cycle of defects and suffering. Some breeders don't want to risk "staining" the gene pool by giving someone a defected as pet only animal to find out it has been bred and it too has troubled hatchlings. While people should not viciously cull an animal most of my friends on here place them in a deli cup say a few kind words and place them in a refridgerator where they will slip into a coma, and then once coma has set in they place the animal in a freezer to "finish the job" It is very humane and they do not feel a thing from what many have noticed.

Butter tubs as hides? Yes i think their ugly, but honestly these work better than most commercial hides especially in respects to them being moist hides for shedding, you dont have to have an "ugly" butter tub, i am a person with imagination and flair so i go to the dollar store buy cheap arts and crafts items and turn a butter tub into a giant lump of moss or ooo a pile of leaves! Yea butter tubs seem bad but it is cheap and works great, try buying 30 commercial hides for these animals if you should get a collection that big.

I use paper towel floors in my quarantine bins it is practical if i have what i suspect is a sick gecko their poo is in the open i can snag it and send it out for a specimen check, or if it looks healthy crumple it up and to the trash it goes. MY big tank has substrate however.

Gambling geckos? I think you may be talking about a gecko lottery or even the secret holiday exchanges that happen here. If you dont support it by all means don't do it. But many people on here trade animals (yes sometimes for breeding or $ purposes) but some animal trades happen because you want to try out a different gecko but do not have the funds to get it. I believe full heartedly trading your pet is hard for these people, but they do it because they want to try something new or (omg they thought of the animal?!) and beleive their gecko would be happy with someone else. Some people with large collections trade their sweet personality toting geckos to people that will have time to handle them in exchange for an animal thatd just be happy as a clam hiding all day. so that way the animal that loves attention gets it and the one that hates it doesnt suffer any drastic change.

For me to tell you there is absolutely NO financial interest at play with breeders would be stupid of me to say, however it isnt so black and white. These people have top notch animals and want other people to enjoy their animal. Yes i agree some animals are very over priced. But my little niche i find myself in sell their "babies" yes we refer to them as our babies, at a more than fair price considdering they spent the money and time to get them to the state their in now. Electicity isnt free (incubating) some people stay up all hours of the night to catch their eggs before they get broken (time) then they wait for in most cases two months for hatching. Then they have to go through their new hatchlings and monitor and inspect each one carefully for problems. Then most people keep them another couple of months (or keep them till a target weight) before they even feel safe sending them to a new home (now what pays for the food, and heating that sustain these animals during their trial period?). And yes culling... contrary to what you beleive it is a hard thing to do, and while you claim to have seen an insensitive post please beleive that poster is a minority and many folks here cull as humanely as possible. So dont you think their efforts deserve some compensation? I dont know too many "super rich" gecko breeders. Most of these people breed for the love of the hobby and want to share their babies with others. And most breeders will flex with you especially if they know you want to give a good home. Prime example at a remptile expo i bought a las vegas sunglow for $27.00 did i get a good deal heck yes, did the breeder no. But he didnt want to take an animal back home with him to live a dreary life in a tub when someone is willing to give them a more comfortable home.

I love my geckos and when I started getting enthused about these animals I knew nothing about them other than they are cute. And i know some people that have helped me immensly are guilty of those "wrong doings" youre pointing out. But trust me these people here not only love their geckos but other peoples geckos. They had no obligation to help me learn proper care and husbandry for these animals but did because they didnt want my ANIMAL to suffer for MY stupidity for not researching before going to the pet shop and going "awww im buying you". I respect your "bravery" for speaking up but I really think you need to take a step back and put yourself in all situations before passing a final judgement.

I'm sorry this is so long but I think I have touched all of your pet peeves and offered plenty of insight.

 

[csdelisle]

This isn't a rant or a rave, it should be in the 'general discussion' section where it belongs. But it's okay that Mr. Mod Squad moved me into the 'rants and raves' section, he is probably just an overbreeder trying to hide my post from others. See, you are excusing these acts because it's "easier to clean". That is for the benefit of yourself and not the geckos. It doesn't make them safer. Ooh and HAHA at the "step of my high horse". I'm trying to make a point here and educate others in hopes that it makes them realize that leopard geckos don't belong in poor living conditions. And yes, I have explored many possibilites. Hands down, it's not right to keep these animals like this without any natural stimulation.

It just amazes me that I am continually bashed because I am trying to help these animals. I think everyone on these forums should be on my side, but once again many of you are very ignorant which is sad.

 

[Tony C]

Your post is full of emotion, but devoid of facts to back up those feelings.

Why do you believe plastic enclosures are inherently bad? I assume you believe glass is superior? Are you aware that plastic is a better insulator, allowing for more stable temperatures? Plastic enclosures are typically opaque, diffusing and dimming light that reaches the geckos inside. This is much more natural for a nocturnal lizard that spends much of its life underground than a glass cage that allows light to shine at full intensity. Plastic enclosures are also light and durable, making thorough cleaning much easier.

Substrates are a matter of much debate, but paper towels are certainly suitable, they are soft, absorbent, lightweight, and easily replaced. Where is the downside? They meet the needs of the gecko and promote cleanliness by making cleanup quick and easy.

As for hides, what makes a pet store plastic hide superior to a homemade plastic hide? Both provide a dark, secure spot for the gecko to hide when it feels the need.

As for culling, have you had any training in genetics? Certain genetic traits are detrimental to the health and well-being of an organism. In nature these detrimental traits are removed by means of natural selection, including predators, disease, starvation, and the rigors of a harsh environment. In captivity none of these selective pressures exist. Without active culling these genetic defects will increase in frequency as affected individuals are nursed through their lives and allowed to breed. The end result will be a captive population of weak, deformed and sickly animals created by good intentions gone wrong. I don't know of anyone who enjoys having to cull an animal, but we do it precisely because we do love our geckos, and love them enough to do a very difficult thing for the good of the species. I would rather cull as necessary than try to save every one and create a gene pool that produces higher and higher proportions of genetically defective geckos leading pain filled, miserable lives.

Breeders who are in it just for the money do not usually last long, because there isn't as much money in it as they think. The vast majority of us are in it for the love of the animals, and that principle guides the decisions we make and the care our animals receive. Take a deep breath and try to understand why certain husbandry methods are so widespread before you decide that breeders are all greedy jerks.

 

[Smidget88]

We love our geckos and you love yours, don't let your passion for the species die, but keep in mind with any hobby there are its negatives. Not every person will ever see eye to eye, but remember there are reasons certain practices are carried out. and to give you a really good example which will support Tony well, My super snow flower has very sensitive eyes I NEVER SEE HER when the lights are on, or the lights are very bright she spends a lot of her time in her hides till the light dims down. She has the sweetest personality but doesnt come out till her vision is better supported. When i first got her and had her in a tub (opaque) she was NEVER in her hide, she was always out in the open staring and observing. Spot is my normal and his eyes arent sensitive hes out all the time. They both love attention but flower is a hermit because i keep her in glass when i make proper adjustments for her eyes though? WATCH OUT shes all over the place. Geckos are nocturnal, opaque tubs filter light and i know that has merit to it because there is no reason her behavior changes because her enclosure did. and glass? hot sides get super hot and need constant monitoring and it doesnt distribute the heat as well, in my glass tank the heat doesnt span too far. In my quarantine set ups i can "set it and forget it" i rarely have issues with thermo regulalation in the plastic and the heat is more evenly distribute.
(tony, thanks for the reminders, i totally forgot to mention the opaque and heating spin of it)

 

[Riyo]

This isn't a rant or a rave, it should be in the 'general discussion' section where it belongs. But it's okay that Mr. Mod Squad moved me into the 'rants and raves' section, he is probably just an overbreeder trying to hide my post from others. See, you are excusing these acts because it's "easier to clean". That is for the benefit of yourself and not the geckos. It doesn't make them safer. Ooh and HAHA at the "step of my high horse". I'm trying to make a point here and educate others in hopes that it makes them realize that leopard geckos don't belong in poor living conditions. And yes, I have explored many possibilites. Hands down, it's not right to keep these animals like this without any natural stimulation.

It just amazes me that I am continually bashed because I am trying to help these animals. I think everyone on these forums should be on my side, but once again many of you are very ignorant which is sad.

Yep, still up there I see. :main_robin: Also, the only bashing I've witnessed in this thread is from you.

Your Setup is astoundingly naturalistic. There is not one thing in that setup that is even close to emulating your gecko's natural habitat.

Your post is not being hidden, and I'm sorry, but you aren't really educating. Animals kept in racks are just as healthy, and often healthier, than animals kept in glass aquariums stated for many reasons above from multiple posters.

Listen to some of the veteran keepers on here and open your mind to some alternative possibilities. Reptiles that eat, breed, poop, and thrive are content and unstressed. How their enclosure looks - whether it is a glass tank filled with resin jungle hides or a plastic tub with Tupperware hides - does not matter to them.

 

[bman123]

You may realize sooner later that the big breeders love these animals and try to better the species by producing quality healthy animals. This thread does belong in the rant and rave section, that's why I suggested a mod to move your thread..

 

[Smidget88]

Why did you complain about paper towel when you have it?
:main_robin: and that looks like a tub not a glass tank to me. I dont see the silicone glue in the corners that is the "halmark" of tanks.

*however, there is a hide that looks like a rock, and they do like rocky terrain desert areas*

I am guilty of this too but i am doing what looks cute... you have jungle leaves in there. IF you truly want natural some people use rocks (bigger than their mouth of course) as substrate, and put non thorny cacti in the tank to gvie foliage...


As bob marley said "Who are you to judge the life i live? I know I am not perfect and I do not live to be. But before you point fingers, Make sure your hands are clean"

Yep, still up there I see. :main_robin: Also, the only bashing I've witnessed in this thread is from you.

Your Setup is astoundingly naturalistic. There is not one thing in that setup that is even close to emulating your gecko's natural habitat.

Your post is not being hidden, and I'm sorry, but you aren't really educating. Animals kept in racks are just as healthy, and often healthier, than animals kept in glass aquariums stated for many reasons above from multiple posters.

Listen to some of the veteran keepers on here and open your mind to some alternative possibilities. Reptiles that eat, breed, poop, and thrive are content and unstressed. How their enclosure looks - whether it is a glass tank filled with resin jungle hides or a plastic tub with Tupperware hides - does not matter to them.

 

[Riyo]

Why did you complain about paper towel when you have it?
:main_robin: and that looks like a tub not a glass tank to me. I dont see the silicone glue in the corners that is the "halmark" of tanks.

*however, there is a hide that looks like a rock, and they do like rocky terrain desert areas*

I am guilty of this too but i am doing what looks cute... you have jungle leaves in there. IF you truly want natural some people use rocks (bigger than their mouth of course) as substrate, and put non thorny cacti in the tank to gvie foliage...


As bob marley said "Who are you to judge the life i live? I know I am not perfect and I do not live to be. But before you point fingers, Make sure your hands are clean"

There is nothing wrong with doing what is cute as long as it is also functional :main_thumbsup:. I don't have a beef with using resin hides because they do work! I have a beef with him attacking everyone who doesn't use a "naturalistic setup."

I hope Gregg Madden posts here with some of his setups.. now those are naturalistic!

There are so many ways of keeping these animals so they are healthy and thriving. There is no single "right" way and it is foolish to think so.

Oh, here's some of my unhealthy, unhappy tub dwellers.

 

[Smidget88]

The last pic is precious! lol
Here is my set up... I use coco fiber, Yes loose substrate EEEK but they have been pooping and eating just fine, I dont intend on sticking with coco I just figured i would try what was out there
here is my un-natural but IMHO cute set up lol

Where are my geckos?

There they are in the rock!

 

[Yamori]

Lots of different kinds of people on here, some breeders, some keepers and some a little of both.
keepers like myself, house their reptiles in fairly large tanks with a natural feel to it, breeders who will have many animals usualy lack the room or the money to have many large tanks set up this way and so they use racks, sure it dosnt look pretty but aslong as the animals are healthy, active and are eating well then i dont see the problem.

If you have a question, are curious about how a person dose things then by all means ask but beleive me everyone here loves their animals and want only the best for them.

Cheers-

Darren

 

[Ehatcher]

There is nothing wrong with doing what is cute as long as it is also functional :main_thumbsup:. I don't have a beef with using resin hides because they do work! I have a beef with him attacking everyone who doesn't use a "naturalistic setup."

I hope Gregg Madden posts here with some of his setups.. now those are naturalistic!

There are so many ways of keeping these animals so they are healthy and thriving. There is no single "right" way and it is foolish to think so.

Oh, here's some of my unhealthy, unhappy tub dwellers.

OMG those geckos are pitiful! They look like they are starving! OMG THEY ARE!! THE BOTTOM PIC...ONE IS TRYING TO EAT THE OTHER ONE! It must because of keeping them in tubs.

 

[Ehatcher]

On a side note. Housing geckos in tubs is NOT cruel. As long as the niche requirements and husbandry needs are met, everything is fine. Ive seen more sick and dying geckos that are not supplemented correctly that come from people who house their animals in "naturalistic" setups that include sand ( ) Hot rocks ( ) No water ( ) No heat ( ). But hey, as long as they have an awesome looking cage that appeals to YOU its ok?

The gecko could really care less about the snazzy new cactus you put in the tank or the 3 stone collage that you added. All it is worrying about is eating and feeling secure. Not only do tubs aid in adding VERY sanitary environments, It allows for temperature and food intake to be monitered very easily.

People may think that tubs are the easy way out or that people dont care about their animals when they use racks and tubs... But truth is, do you think that a person would dish out the type of money they do for commercial racks (not cheap), Thermostats (not cheap), hides (even buying bulk paper bowls is not cheap), papertowels for substrate (not cheap) and supplements ( not cheap) if they didnt love their animals and want to give them the best life that they could?

 

[latshki]

just a point of intrest but animals generally won't breed unless the conditions are just right
this year I had my animals in tanks and setups and some of my females werent ovulating, then I put them in a rack and what do you know she started laying and eating more and you really shouldnt be talking as you are using a tub too

 

[Northstar Herp]

It may be helpful to remember that leos are not mammals, but reptiles, and that fact makes a big difference in what they "like" in a housing situation. Don't anthropomorphize them into mammals and expect them to need the same things. They're not, and they don't.

Sure, there are folks who don't care anything for their reptiles, who are just in it for the money, but I think the OP made some sweeping generalizations that certainly would legitimately offend many here... many good, caring herpers, who love their animals quite a bit. I have an opinion too, and it's that you went a little overboard, Corey.