Do you think Enigmas should still be bred from??

[katie_]

That video is an extreme case. Theyre not all like that.

 

[Bliss]

I brought my Blackhole het Tremper originally to breed. She was sold as showing no signs of ES, but as soon as i got her home she started circling. She got worse as time went on in a similar way to the enigma in that video (i dont think the video is an extreme case) and even stopped eating for 2 months and lost nearly 20g. She has picked up a bit since and is gaining weight again now (she has always been hand fed btw) and she seems a lot better for the time being.
I would never say for anyone not to breed enigmas but it is heartbreaking seeing them in such condition. I will never breed ours now which is a shame because the Enigmas are so beautiful. We will keep ours as a pet for the rest of her life and do as much as possible to give her the best life possible but It has been very upsetting at times seeing her this way.

 

[Laska]

I dont like what happens to some of them, reminds me of a person in a wheel chair with his head back and twitching and swayin his head because his muscles dont work right...- suffering from a neurological disorder- think he likes living that way? Or maybe he doesnt even know-idk. Thats just what I think of when I see the leo doing what they do. SO dont jump on me for it, just an observation.

I will say they are gorgeous leo's and what the morph does in looks is fantastic. I like how most dont breed the really bad "circlers" hopefully one day that part of it will be gone. One could hope right!

 

[Jusselin]

I see stuff like this

minor neurological disorder

and it chaps my hide. I have an enigma (didnt know much about them when I bought her...just knew she was beautiful). She can not live a normal life. All these leo cages with multiple levels of flooring and and fun little things to crawl through, feeding regularly and such. My little girl can not have. I had to take her to the vet a while back because we noticed a black spot getting larger on her belly. We initially thought she was impacted (not knowing how because we took every precaution possible). Come to find out it was a bad bruise. She was falling off of her hides, flipping over her food bowl and could not crawl up to her water dish. I had to make some pretty big changes to accomodate her needs. I am against Enigma breeding. I understand that they are gorgeous and not ALL of theme have the syndrome. Give me one good reason why we NEED to breed them and I might change my mind. But when my little girl passes away, I won't be investing into a new enigma. I will not support the breeding of them for entertainment.

 

[katie_]

I see stuff like this and it chaps my hide. I have an enigma (didnt know much about them when I bought her...just knew she was beautiful). She can not live a normal life. All these leo cages with multiple levels of flooring and and fun little things to crawl through, feeding regularly and such. My little girl can not have. I had to take her to the vet a while back because we noticed a black spot getting larger on her belly. We initially thought she was impacted (not knowing how because we took every precaution possible). Come to find out it was a bad bruise. She was falling off of her hides, flipping over her food bowl and could not crawl up to her water dish. I had to make some pretty big changes to accomodate her needs. I am against Enigma breeding. I understand that they are gorgeous and not ALL of theme have the syndrome. Give me one good reason why we NEED to breed them and I might change my mind. But when my little girl passes away, I won't be investing into a new enigma. I will not support the breeding of them for entertainment.

Well is isnt really a NEED to breed any geckos, is there?

 

[Jusselin]

Well is isnt really a NEED to breed any geckos, is there?

Breeding other morphs with no life hendering disease does not bother me.....This does. Why breed when you KNOW this will happen? It is not like a random birth defect. Enigmas are bred knowing the outcome is possible ES.

 

[Laska]

Breeding other morphs with no life hendering disease does not bother me.....This does. Why breed when you KNOW this will happen? It is not like a random birth defect. Enigmas are bred knowing the outcome is possible ES.

Well said.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I believe that Marcia summed it up best………and I couldn't agree more.

Something we ALL need to be aware of are the facts. All Enigmas carry the genetic predisposition for this neurological defect. ALL OF THEM!

I feel I have a responsibility to the gecko community to produce healthy and robust animals, and knowingly breeding an Enigma that possesses a severe genetic defect is technically unethical.

 

[GodzillaGecko]

In the wild..the issues would kill em. At a breeders home these issues are not so dangerous and the breeder could work out the kinks so to speak. But it never happens over night. Look at dogs for instance...Just to get a certain look they bred Hundreds of dogs and they evolved over the years. Its pretty much the same here. Except the mental illness really needs to be taken care of. I'm thinking it was originally a lot of inbreeding. That would screw up anything. Keep mating outwards and it would help. It works with dogs...you get mutts! And they live forever half the time.

I voted yes only if the breeder knows what they are doing and wants to improve the state of the morph and quality of future geckos. Not a nub breeder who just wants to pretend they know what they are doing and just breeding to make a dime.

and as messed up as I may sound and I really don't mean to come out this harsh. Sometimes its better to curb then to let the creature suffer an ill fate such as this. I couldn't let any animal go through this mess. not eating, needing special care to the point it can't even be a normal gecko because of this illness that screws it up this bad.

People might hate me for saying it but ah well.

 

[CNest]

Just like with any species, when humans start to get involved in breeding things like this happen. You can see it in all different species if you look long enough. Quarter horses have HERDA and HYPP just to name a few. Off the top of my head in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels you have SM (Syringomyelia). I know they can test for these disorders and most are associated with one particular (sire) line, with horses anyway. I'm not too sure about the dogs. I think if one is out crossing and not line breeding this particular trait then this could possibly be ok? I know with the horses they have a tests to help assist breeders in pairing up a sire and dam that are either both negative or one negative an one positive for the particular gene. So the foal would end up a carrier or not but either way not affected by the disorders. Not sure something like that would/could be done with reptiles.

I do know how I feel if a QH breeder crosses two horses that come from the line that is known to carry HERDA or HYPP without testing. Id walk away with a horrible taste in my mouth and never give them business. That to me is irresponsible and unethical to knowing do this. Especially if it was not disclosed to the potential buyer.

If I was a breeder I couldn't breed enigmas. Especially an enigma to enigma pairing. Out crossed pairing? I don't know enough about the syndrome to really answer that. So I think I would just stay away from it all together. If I was breeding to sell I'd feel it was my responsibility to breed and raise healthy animals. I'd have to stay away from them all together.

 

[GodzillaGecko]

Not really sure to much about dogs either but I believe they have a test but I don't believe its 100% accurate.

Either way if your a professional and responsible breeder who knows what they are doing. Then hey go for it. You know the ins and outs already. You know that you can't sell anything with a defect otherwise it would smear your name and rep. Yeah it might hurt the breeders pocket but they are taking that chance to improve on the quality of the morph and reptile for future lines.

I say NO to new breeders and breeders wanting to make a profit and only see this as a profit. Selling herps with inferior quality to the public and spreading the mess that we have out there now.

I won't get an enigma. I'd be happy with a normal regular leo who is healthy and happy. Or with one of the more proven morphs that are out there.

They shouldn't even sell enigma's till they fix the issue. Or at least create a strain that has 1:1000 ratio for a bad one. then its not so bad. I rather have a 0:999999999999999 ratio but that never happens.

 

[ForTozs]

I will never breed my enigma again. He never has shown symptoms, but all his babies have to some degree. I can't stand culling animals. Now with the White & Yellow gene there's really no excuse in my eyes.

 

[GodzillaGecko]

No one likes culling. Unless your a sicko. But sometimes its more humane to cull then to let them be and suffer. Maybe its just to much inbreeding thats messing up this morph altogether.

 

[katie_]

White and yellow is nice, but they are no way as beautiful or unique as engima. IMO

 

[pbgeckos]

I have no desire to breed enigmas. To me, breeding of them is similar to breeding animals genitically predispositioned for blindness/deafness just because they look pretty. I would rather focus my efforts on high quality animals instead of "mentally deformed" animals.

 

[Jordycakes]

I hate the fact that some are messed up, but look at them they have to be the most coolest looking gecko made.

 

[featheredfamilyfriends]

I'm kind of new to this forum and geckos in general but I have read a lot and I agree. More breeding tests should be done. Maybe outcrossing to quality unrelated geckos will help fix the problem. I have experience with genetics of many species and even dwarf hamsters have a similar gene that causes the same thing(mottled). Of course its most likely from the original mutation being line bred trying to promote the new gene but when bred out several generations later it is possible to limit the issue. People need to keep good ID records, communicate about their breedings and how the babies turn out. This doesn't mean you will never have a baby show the problem even from unrelated parents but you can improve the mutation and limit the issue with good record keeping and outcrossing.

 

[ImNotYogi]

If there's a genetic issue that can severely impact on the quality of life of something then it should be stopped. The leo being beautiful doesn't make up the fact that it's doing death rolls and can't properly walk.
It makes me think of people who know they may carry the gene for Huntington's Disease and still choose to have children. HD is a hereditary disease. If one parent carries the mutation then any children have a 50% chance of inheriting the disease. And it will develop at some point in their life. HD is neurological and very similar to Parkinson's.

It's just sounds very irresponsible to me. I'm reading through the thread now and people are mentioning that things can be crossbred out. How is it even possible to breed a hereditary disorder out of the gene pool? Since all leos who carry the enigma gene is at risk of developing the syndrome. At this point, I will not knowingly buy a leo with the enigma gene or buy from a breeder who sells them. It all looks too disgustingly irresponsible to me.

 

[Laporte]

In my opinion,

How would a gecko know what is "normal", take human beings for example born blind def or both, they don't know what it is like to be "normal" ( I use quotations because everyone has their own perception of the word) but still they go on to lead healthy,happy and succssefull lives.

Few off my head examples;
Marly Matlin,
Stevie Wonder,
People in wheelchairs,

Not trying to be rude, I once did a renovation for a man who was wheelchair bound with no use of his hands, he still managed to find a way to scrap vinyl flooring WITH the glue completely off a floor for us to work on the next day, gave me a new found respect.

Breed these animals with love and respect and there should be no issue.

In my opinion,

 

[ImNotYogi]

In my opinion,

How would a gecko know what is "normal", take human beings for example born blind def or both, they don't know what it is like to be "normal" ( I use quotations because everyone has their own perception of the word) but still they go on to lead healthy,happy and succssefull lives.

Few off my head examples;
Marly Matlin,
Stevie Wonder,
People in wheelchairs,

Not trying to be rude, I once did a renovation for a man who was wheelchair bound with no use of his hands, he still managed to find a way to scrap vinyl flooring WITH the glue completely off a floor for us to work on the next day, gave me a new found respect.

Breed these animals with love and respect and there should be no issue.

In my opinion,

A gecko (or any animal) may not have a concept of what's normal but they don't really have a concept of self, anyway. A gecko suffering from enigma syndrome can't tell itself that the death rolls or spinning will stop eventually. That a treatment is the works or up for review by the FDA. And there's nothing but intervention by the owners to help them during feedings or sheds. That's why people need to ask themselves if they should be bred or not. Is it fair to bring something that will have limited independence just because they don't fully comprehend what's happening? Saying there should be no issue if they're bred with love and respect is odd to me. I'm sure there are people who breed and keep enigmas with the best of intentions but it doesn't change the symptoms these animals are at risk for developing.

I asked this in an earlier post and I'm still wondering about the answer. How can a (seemingly) hereditary disease be bred out of the gene pool? If all enigmas carry this gene and a parent showing no signs doesn't guarantee an offspring won't?