Do you think Enigmas should still be bred from??

[Northstar Herp]

Enigma "syndrome" can show itself at any point in the lizard's development, I've seen it in freshly hatched babies, subadults, AND adults. Many times enigmas with barely visible issues show more of the syndrome when they undergo stress; being shipped, exposed to bright lights, the stress of breeding, etc.

Now, I've always been pretty clear on my stance on the enigma gene. What it comes down to is personal ethics: if you as a breeder can handle practicing aggressive culling, manage your stock carefully, and are willing to sell every enigma hatchling with a full disclaimer about the potential of the animal developing varying degrees of a genetically linked neurological issue, then by all means, the enigma gene produces some beautiful animals and adds to pretty much every other genetic morph in existence. However, if you can't morally stand behind these practices(and by culling, I mean euthanasia, subpar animals should be completely removed from the species population, not adopted out as "pets" not sold as "special needs animals" I mean put down for the good of the species as a whole) then stay away from enigmas. The argument that enigma breeders produce these animals for the money is dead at this juncture imo, the market for enigmas is smaller, wholesalers don't want them as they're hard to sell to the general public, and with a dominant gene breeders don't need a large collection of enigmas in order to produce any large number of them. The craze over enigmas has faded, and the price has followed suite. At this point, working with the gene is better based in a genuine appreciation for the morph and what it does to the look of the animal than what price tag you can stick on it. Personally, I will continue to work with the enigma gene, because I myself love what some enigma morphs look like. If culling more aggressively comes with that territory, so be it.

But Ted, doesn't aggressive culling only make sense when the trait can be bred out? From what I've been told, it seems to make no difference whether the parents show the syndrome or not when it comes to the babies showing it. Assuming it's random and not something that can be "linebred" out but is attached to the morph characteristics, then culling wouldn't make any difference to the population.

BTW, I'm not saying from experience that culling won't matter, it's just most of the stuff I've heard tells me it probably won't help ultimately. But who really knows anyway? Let's keep in mind that we are only FOUR generations from the original enigma.

Original animal pops out- 2006

breed- 2007
breed- 2008
breed- 2009

and now here we are. And everybody seems to be able to speak so confidently about the morph. Unless we make assumptions (maybe correct ones) about them based on similar issues with other herps, let's remember that nobody has had very many seasons with enigmas to speak about.

 

[T-ReXx]

But Ted, doesn't aggressive culling only make sense when the trait can be bred out? From what I've been told, it seems to make no difference whether the parents show the syndrome or not when it comes to the babies showing it. Assuming it's random and not something that can be "linebred" out but is attached to the morph characteristics, then culling wouldn't make any difference to the population.

BTW, I'm not saying from experience that culling won't matter, it's just most of the stuff I've heard tells me it probably won't help ultimately. But who really knows anyway? Let's keep in mind that we are only FOUR generations from the original enigma.

Original animal pops out- 2006

breed- 2007
breed- 2008
breed- 2009

and now here we are. And everybody seems to be able to speak so confidently about the morph. Unless we make assumptions (maybe correct ones) about them based on similar issues with other herps, let's remember that nobody has had very many seasons with enigmas to speak about.

Exactly. At this point in time, the MAJORITY of breeders feel that the enigma issue isn't something that can be solved via outcrossing(and my findings thus far lead me in that direction also). However, since we do not for sure even know the exact science behind the syndrome, we can't say that for sure. So, in theory, yes there is still a chance that outcrossing could possibly lead to issue-free enigmas that produce consistantly issue-free offspring. More data is needed to determine a definative answer. As an enigma breeder, and an animal breeder in general, it is still my responsibilty to cull any potentially genetically inferior animals and to only utilize breeders who don't show overt signs of the syndrome. One thing that can be agreed apon is that the syndrome is indeed genetically linked, so any animal that shows signs of it will not be a part of my breeding program. Since I choose to continue to produce enigmas, I accept the fact that I will at some point produce animals that exhibit the syndrome and those animals will be culled. At this point in time I personally am doing very selective breeding with a very few key enigma animals, and I am undecided whether or not I will release any of them for sale, I'm leaning towards keeping the projects in-house for the time being at least.

 

[Northstar Herp]

As usual, Ted, I thoroughly agree with you...

 

[monkeytechahoo]

this has been an interesting read for a person who doesn't care what breed gecko they have yet learns that some have some issues that I haven't read about. I have an enigma, didn't know there was a possible genetic issue with their breed, yet I can watch out for it now. I was just looking for a gecko pet and got a really cute one.

I work in a breeding research center for owl & squirrel monkeys and we have some genetics issues that crop up from time to time that haven't been bred out since the colonies have been made. Over 30+yrs for the squirrels, just 9yrs for the owls. Course we really haven't looked to breed anything out as we don't deal with the "general public" and those with the issues are taken out of the pool and act as nannies for unwanted babies or buddies for those who retire from the troop due to age. Yet nature does mess with things and will give us something yrs down the road that we thought we bred far enough from or hadn't seen in a while....such as half sister-cousin-cousin-brother type thing. (why does that still sound so redneck to me? *lol* )

 

[biggoofybastard]

Enigma "syndrome" can show itself at any point in the lizard's development, I've seen it in freshly hatched babies, subadults, AND adults. Many times enigmas with barely visible issues show more of the syndrome when they undergo stress; being shipped, exposed to bright lights, the stress of breeding, etc.

Now, I've always been pretty clear on my stance on the enigma gene. What it comes down to is personal ethics: if you as a breeder can handle practicing aggressive culling, manage your stock carefully, and are willing to sell every enigma hatchling with a full disclaimer about the potential of the animal developing varying degrees of a genetically linked neurological issue, then by all means, the enigma gene produces some beautiful animals and adds to pretty much every other genetic morph in existence. However, if you can't morally stand behind these practices(and by culling, I mean euthanasia, subpar animals should be completely removed from the species population, not adopted out as "pets" not sold as "special needs animals" I mean put down for the good of the species as a whole) then stay away from enigmas. The argument that enigma breeders produce these animals for the money is dead at this juncture imo, the market for enigmas is smaller, wholesalers don't want them as they're hard to sell to the general public, and with a dominant gene breeders don't need a large collection of enigmas in order to produce any large number of them. The craze over enigmas has faded, and the price has followed suite. At this point, working with the gene is better based in a genuine appreciation for the morph and what it does to the look of the animal than what price tag you can stick on it. Personally, I will continue to work with the enigma gene, because I myself love what some enigma morphs look like. If culling more aggressively comes with that territory, so be it.

Why would you kill animals that could live an otherwise content left turn only life? by all means if it couldn't eat and would starve or fail to thrive. Otherwise it would be the equivalent to euthanizing a puppy for dysplasia

 

[Brewboy74]

Why would you kill animals that could live an otherwise content left turn only life? by all means if it couldn't eat and would starve or fail to thrive. Otherwise it would be the equivalent to euthanizing a puppy for dysplasia

Simply you can't spay or neuter a gecko, to my limited knowledge, like you can a puppy. There is no way to make sure these "pet only" enigma's will not be bred which would ensure that the issues could never be bred out of the animals.

 

[Sveeper]

2008 male first Enigma Usa Steve Sykes. No problem is still alive!
In 2009 I bought a pair of SHT ENIGMA, this day, no hassle and no babies and breeding.
2010 Mack Snow Tremper Albino Enigma year, a few, there is no problem in babies.
Since then a lot of crosses and gekckos no problem (maybe in a couple of eggs can not be off)
Year 2011: 184 enigma hatching baby and there was no problem.
This may depend on domestic breeding, brother x sister and care.
Therefore, should breed het's!
In my opinion, does not have to ruin Enigma.

Sveeper

 

[KelliH]

It's up to the individual breeder. Some like Enigmas, some do not. I personally love them but the closed mindedness about them wore me down over the years so I don't have many now.

 

[stager]

I love some of them, because of the issues they have I personally would not breed them, but to each his own.

 

[KelliH]

I love some of them, because of the issues they have I personally would not breed them, but to each his own.

Exactly, to each his own! By the way I love the quote in your sig, I'm a huge Hunter S. Thompson fan. ;-)

 

[zoe2710]

I have 4 enigma's (enigma morphs) and 1 of them shows serious signs, the 3 other have little problems (they have to try 3 times to catch a prey but nothing serious).

I would breed with them but only if they show little to no signs. There are soms beautiful morphs created thanks to the enigma trait so I do'nt see why we should stop breeding with them, again only if the animals don't show the signs of mental problems (like the circling and stuff).

But to each their own choice.

 

[SamsonizeMe]

Sorry if this was already stated but thread was TL;DR.

This poll needs a third option, "Some yes, some no". I have two enigma girls myself and they both have the syndrome - one has it mild, the other has it fairly bad. The bad one is terrible at feeding and can't really shed on her own. This is not a pet a typical person should be involved with (she entails more responsibility)... much less bred.

Personally I wouldn't breed a mild one either. I don't want to have to face the hard choice of culling because I made a selfish breeding decision.

It's a coin toss... you might avoid the syndrome entirely, you might not. Some factors can increase or decrease your odds (picking symptomless breeders). But it seems like the syndrome can pop up no matter what the parental factor was.

Some breeders probably would have culled my Nebula (the one who has the heavy symptoms) but she is living a happy life... and it's sometimes very hard to make the distinction between an animal that can live well, versus one that can't. The quality of care from one individual owner to the next varies, as well. She wouldn't do well at all with say, a ten year old being her primary caregiver.

TL;DR, it's a case-by-case basis. If you do, then you have to be ready to cull. Otherwise you doom a baby animal to a much more prolonged and stressful death.

 

[blooddragon88]

I think that as long as u take proper care with then it will be ok

 

[katie_]

What happens when you breed an enigma that his apparently healthy, showing no signs at all - until after shes been bred?
Do you cull the offspring?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Something we ALL need to be aware of are the facts. All Enigmas carry the genetic predisposition for this neurological defect. ALL OF THEM! Some will never exhibit these problems, others will be affected so severely it is a quality of life issue. An Enigma that has never displayed any problems could develop them when subjected to severe stress... like shipping, breeding, and even bright light. An enigma that does not exhibit these problems will pass the gene(s) on to their offspring.

As a breeder, I have different feelings about breeding Enigmas than I do when I am simply a gecko lover. The Enigma is an exquisitely beautiful morph... each one having distinct physical characteristics and yet no two look the same. They are usually extremely good-natured, and have voracious appetites. I think they are beautiful, gentle creatures! The breeder part of my brain tells me that it is an ethical decision whether to breed Enigmas or not. I feel I have a responsibility to the gecko community to produce healthy and robust animals, and knowingly breeding an Enigma that possesses a severe genetic defect is technically unethical. For this reason, I have decided to phase-out all of my Enigma projects over the next year.

In reality, I cannot judge whether the Enigma should be bred or not by anyone. I am not the judge or the jury. Ethics mean different things to different people, and I personally feel that the real ethical issue would be not disclosing this problem with Enigmas to buyers. I cannot imagine a gecko world without Enigmas... and the few that I have left in my collection are treasured for their beauty, temperament, and uniqueness. I love them.

 

[uhxxLeah]

I debated whether to get into the enigma morph, and decided to try two. I have a NOVA and a BEE and besides being beautiful, they are two of the most personality filled geckos i have.
Once in a while my BEE does show some circleing, but its one circle when she gets put back in her tank and then shes fine.

My nova has not shown any enigma symptoms and she will be my only enigma to breed this season.

I think its very irresponsible to be selling enigmas without informing buyers of possible problems and issues that they may have, but if they are informed i see no problem. Its like warning someone how big their snake will get, if they dont know, then they are likely to be like WTF when it gets 7 foot, and not know how to care for it. You just need to know what your getting into and know how to care for an enigma.

Leah

 

[Geckos4Life<3]

When I first was getting geckos I got a raptor the a Mack snow. Then I went to London for a few days and on my way home I bought three. 2 were enigmas - Albino enigma and Super Hypo Enigma. I wasn't informed on the whole circling thing. They are both great feeders but I hand feed them as they do not have the best aim. My Super hypo enigma is really bad with it. She gets frightened REALLY easy and she goes round and round in circles. She gets scared when I try to lift her a lot but once she's out she is kinda ok. I really love enigmas too. They are such enthusiastic feeders even though I wasnt informed about the circling etc. I would never sell my precious little babies - well they're not really babies, you know what I mean


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[R3d_devil]

<------ Blood enigma =)

 

[The Gecko Person]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nvMUq6HBp8

 

[The Gecko Person]

<----- Non-Enigma SHTCTB =)