Do you think Enigmas should still be bred from??

[tangerineman]

IMHO

what i think is negative about all this flooding of enigmas into the population is the rate at which it is becoming the new 'normal' especially if we are going from a situation where most geckos are without any major issues, then floods of defective geckos are outcrossed and dumped into the breeding pool ($15 enigmas by the hundreds?) carrying any defects with them and flooding the market with loads of geckos which need to be "bred out' to improve...
i will definitely be keeping several strains of geckos very 'non-enigma', when i do get an enigma.

I know this is just a matter of time before everyone will have an enigma, they will be the new normal, and even the most basic level of hobbyist will be breeding them. I just hope to not take steps backwards as far as the genetic health of the captive bred species is concerned. I see no reason to breed every single morph i have into an enigma, although i admit my curiosity has gotten the best of me as far as how i wonder what certain combinations may look like.still this thinking is just a recipe for disaster in some ways,

i am ranting a bit, so i hope i am making some sense,
at the risk of sounding pretentious
with the speed at which this morph is becoming so common and still has , in some cases, some way to go before there are no 'bad apples' in the gene pool, it seems an awful big repsonsibility to bestow into the hands of those who may be only willing to spend $__ (w/e the going enigma rate is now $15?) to get 'the gene', thinking that they will be responsible enough to outcross and not breed an animal that shows any signs of these issues.

my question also is this, i hear more experienced breeders saying this happens to all morphs whe they first hit the market, they need time to work out 'the kinks' so to speak...but is this really a good comparison?
I mean were high yellows, SHCTB, macks etc all running in circles and
so forth like some enigmas do?
I'd lie to read about some afflictions that early morphs had, and i welcome any links anyone has handy.

there's a certain part of me that is angry that animals like that were even sold to begin with, i mean why hurry, breed out the bugs before it is released to the public, obviously in a certain light is appears that there has been some mismanagement already as far as how the afflicted animals made it into the population...

It would disturb me very much to have an animal running in circles in my collection. I am just glad that i don't.
I may sound bitter or w/e , but believe me if i pay a grand for a gecko it better not run in circles and twitch its head.

It seems like there is no point disputing whether they should or shouldn't be bred, they are here now and everywhere. there is no going back in time. Maybe the problem was the way in which they have been distributed.

does a mechanic build a car and sell it w/o trying to start it first?
doesn't a breeder have a responsibility first and foremost to sell a quality animal. if they don't care, who will?

 

[MSMD]

I will be breeding mine when they are of breeding size, as long as they continue to show no signs of any problems. I will be outcrossing them.

 

[Hacksaw]

i agree that the enigma is becoming the new 'normal'..

unlike the normal gecko though the enigma is hurting the leopard gecko market..

 

[tangerineman]

ok, maybe i was harsh

i know i sounded a bit harsh in my previous post, and maybe some of my anger may have been misdirected, I probably have allowed my frustration with the overall business side of things (business=frustration) to get in the way of a more rational discussion on the present state of breeding enigmas right NOW.

I'm sure more experienced breeders may have gone through this level of frustration some time in their past, as they have ridden waves of various genetic mutations that have been discovered...

as I said in the post, it is 'WHEN' i get an enigma, not 'IF'
as eventually, i am sure i will get one...

D

btw i did vote 'yes' to breeding them

 

[Gregg M]

Just a question, Why is the minor neurological disorder a problem???

You can not be serious.... In some animals it is not minor... Also, breeding something with even minor disorders just to produce a certain look is not very responsible or ethical...

Thanks for the explanation. I voted "YES"! I've been around since a high-yellow was the newest morph, and seen literally every morph introduced. ALL of them had their issues, and with responsible breeding and outcrossing these problems went away.

While this is somewhat true, (not all morphs had issues) none of the other morphs showed problems quite as serious as what some of the enigmas show... Also, not all genetic problems can be eliminated through outcrossing. You cant say that these particular "issues" will go away with time for certain... They may not...

Anyway, I voted YES... It is a very beautiful morph... As long as animals are used that do not show signs of this "disorder" it is perfectly fine in my opinion...

 

[Anthony Caponetto]

i agree that the enigma is becoming the new 'normal'..

unlike the normal gecko though the enigma is hurting the leopard gecko market..

That's a good point...the Enigma gene will probably be the new normal. It does cool stuff with snow projects and with tangerine projects, which covers dozens of potential combos. I imagine breeders will one day have the enigma gene incorporated into all of their favorite projects.

I don't think they hurt the market, though...at least not that I know of. I just think people got caught up in the "space race" aspect of working with a new morph...when that happens, everyone will crank them out as fast as is physically possible...then the price goes kaput.

Oh well, I still think they have a ton of potential and it doesn't take too many $100-300 geckos to turn a profit. And there will always be the $500-1,000 "cream of the crop" type geckos that are sold privately.

If you think long-term, think about what will still be cool in three years. Not just any old enigma. They will be everywhere, but high end selectively bred nicest enigmas will just begin to start appearing. Don't forget, we really haven't seen more than 1-2 generations of selective breeding yet.

I think the circling stuff is getting bred out. No matter how you look at that, though...they're here and they're not going away. Even if 90% of us boycott them, people will still have them because they look cool.

 

[thestack510]

PSGeckos in your post you say, "Enigma hets," but I've been told by several well known breeders with a lot of experience with Enigmas that there is no such thing as an "Enigma het." Geckos are either Enigma or not, and cannot be het for the trait. I may be misunderstanding what you mean, I'm just trying to clarify things.

 

[Sandra]

PSGeckos in your post you say, "Enigma hets," but I've been told by several well known breeders with a lot of experience with Enigmas that there is no such thing as an "Enigma het." Geckos are either Enigma or not, and cannot be het for the trait. I may be misunderstanding what you mean, I'm just trying to clarify things.

The word heterozygous is used loosely in the reptile hobby, as if it just meant a normal looking animal that is carrying a genetic trait, but that's only true for recessive traits.

A heterozygous animal is one that carries a normal allele and a mutant allele in the same gene. The looks of the het depend on the type of mutation it is.

Recessive: the het looks normal (like in albinos)
Co-doms (formerly "incomplete dominant"): the het looks like a blend of both morphs (like Mack snows are somewhere in between a normal and a Super snow).
Dominant: the het looks like the mutation itself (like in enigmas)

Most enigmas out there are actually het. enigma. That's why enigma x normal produce 50% enigmas (het enigma) and 50% normals, in the same way a normal het albino x normal would produce 50% het albinos (normal looking) and 50% normals.

 

[tangerineman]

..some good points

yes, Anthony , you bring up some good points,
i knew i was getting hung up on some things that made me irritated,

sometimes it's difficult to see the forest for the trees...lol

-Duane

 

[Taquiq]

Enigmas are the base to other stunning morphs, including the Nova, Super Nova, Black Hole, Dreamsicle, etc. If everyone stopped working with Enigmas we wouldn't have those beautiful morphs! So yes, in my opinion we should keep working with Enigmas and keep those other Enigma based morphs coming. I look forward to getting a couple of Enigmas for next breeding season that I plan to produce some Nova's and maybe some Dreamsicles later on. So yes people should keep working with Enigmas.

 

[janjgeckos]

For those that have produced Enigmas with issues at what age and or size did the issue start? Was it right out of the egg, as a sub adult, or adult?

 

[roger]

Debate going on in the UK forum.

Personally I will be bredding enigmas this coming season as my enigma het bell is in perfect health and the enigma morph can create such beautiful animals when out crossed.

If any of the hatchlings show problems they will be kept with me not sold on and I will not bred from that male again.

Just wanted everyone else views on it.

I will never own an enigma.To me it doesnt make sense to breed a leo with physical defects.For me its an ethical stance.just my opinion.

 

[CallDr]

I would like to hear an opinion from a biologist and not someone who does this for a hobby or has commercial interest.

 

[bman123]

It's the same thing as the spider ball python. They are both dominant morphs and they both have the same problem

 

[sunshinegeckofarm]

i have 2 enigmas which do not exhibit the neuro problems they have but I have had 2 bell enigmas hatch with the neuro problems which one died and the other i had to put down it was not eating whatsoever and barely could walk. Also i have bought a bell enigma in the past that didnt exhibit the problems at first but then in a couple of months she wasn't eating whatsoever and was circling non stop and had a really bad head tilt i tried all i could to help her but i had to put her down also. I have bred my bell enigma male to a non bell and I shall see how they turn out when any enigmas hatch whether they exhibit it or not and survive into adulthood. I have a tangerine enigma too which has not ovulated yet so I have not bred her but she does not exhibit any problems. I will try breeding enigmas for one more year and if I see too many problems with them I will not breed them myself I can't bear to see babies dying not doing well and makes me feel like a poor breeder. I love how they look but the morph has many problems.

 

[chrome sitar]

I'll be breeding enigmas next year when I get some.


Now. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone here, but I have been doing some reading on Carpet Python forums.
As some of you may know,the Jaguar morph of carpet pythons also has a head wobble. Usually it is not a serious problem.
Some snakes have the wobble at birth, some develop it later, and others never exhibit it.
However, snakes who have never shown a sign of wobble have produced offspring who do.
Some carpet breeders are coming to the conclusion that this can never be bred out of Jaguars.

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. I am simply keeping my mind open to the possibility that enigmas could end up the same way.

 

[Norman_22]

Enigmas are the base to other stunning morphs, including the Nova, Super Nova, Black Hole, Dreamsicle, etc. If everyone stopped working with Enigmas we wouldn't have those beautiful morphs! So yes, in my opinion we should keep working with Enigmas and keep those other Enigma based morphs coming. I look forward to getting a couple of Enigmas for next breeding season that I plan to produce some Nova's and maybe some Dreamsicles later on. So yes people should keep working with Enigmas.

+1 on this:main_thumbsup:

not all enigmas exhibit the neuro problems:main_thumbsup:

 

[justindh1]

+1 on this:main_thumbsup:

not all enigmas exhibit the neuro problems:main_thumbsup:

But they all can produce enigma's with the same problems that plague every bit of the genetics out there. There's not one single enigma out there that doesn't pass on the bad genetics. The color and pattern of the enigma is always going to be linked to the problems they have. It will not be bred out and most people agree to that, even the original breeders of the enigma. It's a personal choice for everyone to make tho. I will never touch any gecko with the enigma genes buts that just my choice. For me, dealing with the deformities, infertiles eggs, and everyting else that happens in the everyday life of breeding is enought for me. I don't need to add more issues to the mix that I know will happen from breeding this genetics.

 

[infamousJokeR]

i see this a lot with pit bull breeding (as it's the only other animal scene i follow). despite any genetic health problems, they continue to breed for a specific trait like big heads, thick bodies and chests, etc. when it comes down to it, they ignore the problems for two things... greed and popularity.

But they all can produce enigma's with the same problems that plague every bit of the genetics out there. There's not one single enigma out there that doesn't pass on the bad genetics. The color and pattern of the enigma is always going to be linked to the problems they have. It will not be bred out and most people agree to that, even the original breeders of the enigma. It's a personal choice for everyone to make tho. I will never touch any gecko with the enigma genes buts that just my choice. For me, dealing with the deformities, infertiles eggs, and everyting else that happens in the everyday life of breeding is enought for me. I don't need to add more issues to the mix that I know will happen from breeding this genetics.

+1.

 

[T-ReXx]

For those that have produced Enigmas with issues at what age and or size did the issue start? Was it right out of the egg, as a sub adult, or adult?

Enigma "syndrome" can show itself at any point in the lizard's development, I've seen it in freshly hatched babies, subadults, AND adults. Many times enigmas with barely visible issues show more of the syndrome when they undergo stress; being shipped, exposed to bright lights, the stress of breeding, etc.

Now, I've always been pretty clear on my stance on the enigma gene. What it comes down to is personal ethics: if you as a breeder can handle practicing aggressive culling, manage your stock carefully, and are willing to sell every enigma hatchling with a full disclaimer about the potential of the animal developing varying degrees of a genetically linked neurological issue, then by all means, the enigma gene produces some beautiful animals and adds to pretty much every other genetic morph in existence. However, if you can't morally stand behind these practices(and by culling, I mean euthanasia, subpar animals should be completely removed from the species population, not adopted out as "pets" not sold as "special needs animals" I mean put down for the good of the species as a whole) then stay away from enigmas. The argument that enigma breeders produce these animals for the money is dead at this juncture imo, the market for enigmas is smaller, wholesalers don't want them as they're hard to sell to the general public, and with a dominant gene breeders don't need a large collection of enigmas in order to produce any large number of them. The craze over enigmas has faded, and the price has followed suite. At this point, working with the gene is better based in a genuine appreciation for the morph and what it does to the look of the animal than what price tag you can stick on it. Personally, I will continue to work with the enigma gene, because I myself love what some enigma morphs look like. If culling more aggressively comes with that territory, so be it.