Enigma Morph Questions?

[Jeremy Letkey]

I believe Marlo's reply would work more in favor of discovering a recessive trait.

With the Enigmas, there is no het. Therefore the mutation would only happen in a single hatchling and not be reproducible by either of the parents. Making it even harder to trace.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If Enigmas kept 'popping up' over the years from leos that didn't look like Enigmas.

Enigmas did not KEEP popping up all over the place. We are talking about two, perhaps three, similar morphs that have been observed! Let's not jump to conclusions that "Enigmas keep popping up" in multiple breeder's colonies! Geeze, people!

We are looking at two random morphs, and we know that one of them is genetic... the Enigma. Why? Because is has been PROVEN by very reputable US breeders. The 'other' similar morph(s) have absolutely NO documented genetic studies performed on them that we have seen so far. Until this information is provided, we are spinning our wheels.

Also, I would like to remind all of us that we CANNOT make unfounded remarks about the business or ethical aspects of ANY business or breeders her on GeckoForums.net without breaking the TOS of this website. A few posts on this thread have come uncomfortably close in doing that. Please review the TOS of this website and think before posting. Thanks.

I really think this topic is interesting, stimulating, and very intriguing! BUT... without any statistical proof other than a few photos, we cannot jump to conclusions here about the relationship between these geckos.

 

[Wezul]

Enigmas did not KEEP popping up all over the place. We are talking about two, perhaps three, similar morphs that have been observed! Let's not jump to conclusions that "Enigmas keep popping up" in multiple breeder's colonies! Geeze, people!

I was referring to the Enigmas that kept 'popping up' in the Bells' breeding colony (FOR YEARS) before they were released. Unless I have misinterpreted the story, Enigmas were noticed 'popping up' for years in this particular colony, although they might have been called 'calicos' or whatever. So, if they kept 'popping up' in the colony (1 colony, not multiple) , over years, that would not be a random genetic mutation.

 

[arkreptiles]

Some of you may be aware that a debate regarding the potentially inheritable undesirable behaviourable issues that some have experienced with Enigma's is going on in the UK. It could be a very damaging debate for Enigma popularity although I suspect some that are 'anti-enigma' so to speak possibly have their own agenda's.

We acquired a pair of Enigma's in December last year and unfortunately the female is afflicted with balance problems and circles. In all other repects however she seems fine, feeding, shedding etc. The male we are pleased to say exhibits none of these symptoms and is a very healthy, happy and now quite large Leo!

We are certainly not sufficiently qualified to determine what the problem is. We can only observe and learn from what others have observed. What seems clear to us is that whilst this is not an issue exclusive to Enigma's (consider reported issues with the Spider Ball morph) it has high incidences in the Enigma morph and appears to occur in some offspring sired by apparently healthy parents.

We along with a couple of other Enigma breeders in the UK have therefore agreed to adhere to a voluntary code of conduct that means we will not attempt to sell any Enigma that appears to have any of these behavioural problems and will only sell healthy animals once they are 8 months old. Furthermore, we will offer a refund policy for those animals that exhibit such traits after the point of sale.

We have also alerted readers of our website to the issue and our commitment to the code of conduct. Hopefully this will go some way to appeasing any potential buyers of our Enigma's will have.

It is a shame that it has come to this but we feel that successive outcrossing will greatly reduce the incidences of this problem. Only time or intrusive medical research will really resolve this matter.

 

[boutiquegecko]

I was referring to the Enigmas that kept 'popping up' in the Bells' breeding colony (FOR YEARS) before they were released. Unless I have misinterpreted the story, Enigmas were noticed 'popping up' for years in this particular colony, although they might have been called 'calicos' or whatever. So, if they kept 'popping up' in the colony (1 colony, not multiple) , over years, that would not be a random genetic mutation.

Got it-I've read that as well and never really thought about it until you pointed it out. I supose what could have happened is if the first enigma looked sort of normal and was bred, then there would of coures be more enigmas noticed later??
Jeremy, you're right that what I said sound more for a recessive gene (it was late). I was trying to say if using breeding groups it would be hard to pinpoint the exact female the egg came from.

 

[eyelids]

I'm starting to suspect the reason so many UK people have issues is because of their source... Most Enigmas bought and sold in the US are from outcrosses... Especially considering you can buy outcrossed ones year round here and the others only a select few times a year...

Note: I purposefully made that sound rather vague...

 

[Wezul]

Marlo- Thanks, I didn't know if I was conveying my thoughts well enough for someone else to understand what I was saying/thinking.

Got it-I've read that as well and never really thought about it until you pointed it out. I supose what could have happened is if the first enigma looked sort of normal and was bred, then there would of coures be more enigmas noticed later??
Jeremy, you're right that what I said sound more for a recessive gene (it was late). I was trying to say if using breeding groups it would be hard to pinpoint the exact female the egg came from.

Now here's my point about the single-gecko theory (the first Enigma- THE ONE RANDOM GENETIC MUTATION):
1. Out of 50,000 a year the chances of finding and holding back a single gecko- one that might not have even stood out that much- I would think would be slim-to-none.
2. If said gecko was held back and bred into another line to try and reproduce the desired trait, then you would KNOW which line of geckos these 'pop ups' were coming from and they would not be randomly 'popping up' from other breeding projects (over years) ,only the breeding project it was incorporated/crossed into.

I'm probably way off base, but the way I've understood the story of origin is that these geckos (multiple,NOT just one)were 'popping up' for years from breeding groups that could not be identified.
So is it possible that it was a 'genetic combination' that was creating these 'pop ups' instead of a Random Genetic Mutation?

 

[beezy]

mark bell did not hatch the first enigma nothing. enigma first popped out in EU. i believe it came from a w/y line. some of the w/y were coming out with issues. i believe these were called the enigmas. the first enigma was SOLD to mark and kim bell. i got this info from a TRUSTED breeder in EU that is VERY close with the originator. i am still trying to figure out all the little details but i am 100% SURE that mark and kim bell did not hatch out the first enigma at all.