Enigma Morph Questions?

[ataber]

well personally i dont really care where they came from but more where they are going. If they are the same thing then to me it seems that the US breeders have done alot more with them in a shorter time then the european breeders have done....

 

[Kotsay1414]

Gregg,

I am really interested to see what you come up with.

Kyle

 

[dprince]

Thanks for the pictures, Paul!! While I can definitely see similarities, they don't look the same to me. Definitely not the eyes, and as you say, the hatchlings in those pictures look very different than enigma hatchlings do to me. They very well could have come one from another, but they just don't look like the same morph to me. Just my opinion - I guess time will tell, eh?

 

[Kotsay1414]

Enigma Eye vs. White and Yellow Eye

I've been looking at eye shots of Enigmas and comparing it to the White and Yellow eye. They look very similar. The White and Yellow eye seems to show Red Veins. I have included a cropped version of both eyes for comparison. The White and Yellow eye pictures came from Griesi and the Enigma shot came from Tamara Locke.

Kyle

 

[Gregg M]

If they are the same thing then to me it seems that the US breeders have done alot more with them in a shorter time then the european breeders have done....

This is not always a good thing... Now that the gene is "known" to be dominant, outcrossing is done... When they first came to the US BEFORE they got into Kellis collection and the general publics collection, how much outcrossing do you think went on??? I am going with a very minute %....

Maybe the Europeans are on to something...

 

[ataber]

http://www.geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=173252&postcount=7

You probably know this thread?:

Sergey also sent me this via e-mail:

"We didn't exactly discovered the type of W&Y gene. It's because we made W&Y selection by inbreeding. And only in the last year we crossed W&Y with Super hypo tangerine and Blazing blizzard at the first time.
In first case we had F1 litter similar to Super hypo tangerine. And in case of Blazing blizzard we had F1 litter similar to normal."

gregg i kinda see what your saying but if what the person in this post is saying is true then they inbred for almost 10 years before outcrossing since in the posts made by sergey on the other forum say they're first w&y popped up in 1996.

whatever the truth is im sure it will come out eventually.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

When they first came to the US BEFORE they got into Kellis collection and the general publics collection, how much outcrossing do you think went on??? I am going with a very minute %....

Gregg, only Mark Bell can answer this. Kelli worked VERY hard to prove out the Enigma morph for Mark Bell. I really don't think it's fair OR ethical to make these ASSumptions without consulting with either of them about this! Theoretical opinions are fine, but without FACTS, they are only that... theoretical.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

This is only hypothetical...

What if the Bells did not produce the first Enigmas? What does this change and how would it be different from the first leopard gecko morphs? Of the 3 albino strains, the Bells are the only one that I have not heard of as originating some place else. It's not a big secret but it is not common knowledge either. Is there some type of conspiracy involved? I just don't get it.

I want to thank whoever produced the first Enigmas and Kelli for putting in the work to give us an idea as to what we would have in store for us.

I knew I should have just bought those damn geckos. :main_laugh: :main_rolleyes:

 

[dprince]

Amen, Jeremy. Well stated. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Gregg M]

Well I am not questioning Kellis part in proving the morph... She did a fine job in my opinion... I am just questioning the true origin of the morph because of the "very similar" animals that popped up in a European collection way prior to anyone here in the States ever even heard of an Enigma or white and yellow/calico/blue tail...

Marcia, for you to capitalize the first 3 letters in the word "assumptions" is bordering on disrespectful and I would expect more from a moderator than a childish inuendo...

Anyway, to me it does matter where they come from as much as it matters where they are going... There is nothing wrong with questioning the origin of the animal especially when there is supporting facts that say they might not have originated here...

Also, the Bells albino was never in question here either... I was talking about the Enigma... I guess at the end of the day it does not matter because we as keepers and breeders want to make beautiful leos using the Enigma genetics... The thing is, is that I want to know what the real deal is on these geckos and I am sure, now, many people are curious as well...

 

[bro paul]

I too would like to know as much as possible about some of the morphs we're currently working with! I mean, I find it amazing that we still don't have much of an explanation for all the eye traits floating around...and have really made very little progress in understanding them. Not that we have to understand everything...but it doesn't hurt to try - I don't think. The enigmas are the same way.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Wether we know where the Enigma's originated from is not going to help us understand anything about their genetics. Time and breeding will.

I'm not saying it is some big cover up, I'm also not saying I wouldn't want to know if there is an alternate answer than the one we currently know. What I am saying is that right now people are making it sound like there is some dirty little secret. There is no solid proof of this.


Where did the Murphy's patternless come from... who truly produced the very first one, on what date and in what city and state?

 

[Franks_Geckos]

For the record, I produced the first of every morph that currently or ever will exist......... that's my dirty little secret.... don't tell anyone... If they find out they will blame me for circling and any other undesirable traits that may pop up.....lol. Of course, I can only wish I produced the first of anything... Frank's Geckos would be much more successful...ok...let's just make that successful period

 

[Gregg M]

Jeremy, I agree with you for the most part... That is why I never stated anything as fact... What I am getting to is my personal feelings on the subject that were sparked by a few emails and seeing photos of "Enigma like" geckos from Europe back in the mid to late 90's... That is what, 10 years prior to the release of them in the US???

Knowing where they came from can help us with their gentic make up... Were the parent animals wild caught imports??? If so, the Europeans are very well known for being purists when it comes to reptiles, so there might be some collection data or even an exact locality... Who knows, the Enigma morph can be a sub-species for all we know or the genetics can be locality spacific...

Now, if there was a "dirty little secret" (not saying there is) whould that, in any way, help figure out what is truely going on as far as the genetics go???

 

[boutiquegecko]

Wether we know where the Enigma's originated from is not going to help us understand anything about their genetics. Time and breeding will.

I'm not saying it is some big cover up, I'm also not saying I wouldn't want to know if there is an alternate answer than the one we currently know. What I am saying is that right now people are making it sound like there is some dirty little secret. There is no solid proof of this.


Where did the Murphy's patternless come from... who truly produced the very first one, on what date and in what city and state?

That's well said Jeremy. It does seem like the secrects are coming second person too, so if there is someone out there who has an enigma from before Mark hatched his out, then they need to come forward themselves.

 

[bro paul]

I could care less about cover ups and where stuff comes from. I do care a lot about how we got it...genetically. If an originator can give any insight to that then great. At this point the enigmas are seen as a random trait that popped up on it's own (not a combo of traits)...just like patternless, blizzards, etc... From everything we've gathered, that will probably remain the case.

 

[boutiquegecko]

I agree, that's why I'm curious if there really is someone who had them before Mark did.
And if so, did they hatch from a wc group, an import group, inbreeding etc? From what we do know about them-has it ever been said if they came from a wc group Mark had or import group, from his bell albino line etc?
Also where the first enigmas het bell? I can't remember.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, for you to capitalize the first 3 letters in the word "assumptions" is bordering on disrespectful and I would expect more from a moderator than a childish inuendo...

I apologize that I failed to meet your expectations as a moderator for this site.

Now, on topic... since these morphs popped out as a random mutation that have proven to be genetic, isn't it entirely possible that they might be completely separate, yet similar, morphs? After all, we have 3 strains of albino that are similar in that they are albinos, yet they are genetically very different.

We can discuss our theories until we are blue in the face, but the only way we will have our answers is to either have them genetically tested for comparison, or obtain some of them and do extensive breeding projects over the next few years.

Any volunteers?

 

[KelliH]

Wow. I go on a fun road trip to Arizona with my family to try and clear my mind and get away and this is what I read when I have a chance to get online for a few minutes. Dissapointing to say the least. Lie? Cover up? "Sources"???You have got to be kidding. Do you really think Mark Bell would lie just to make people think he was the FIRST to produce Enigmas/Callicos/whatever? No offense against Mark but he does not give a rat's behind about being first, he cares about selling reptiles and making money.

1.) As far as who really was "first", if these geckos are the same morph, well, Mark has been telling Steve about this strange "morph" for years and years. Mark has been exporting reptiles to Europe for years and years. Mark told me that initially he probably sold a few Enigmas and did not even realilze what he had.

2.) Could it not be possible that these people in Europe hatched out a "new" morph that is similar or even the same as an Enigma? Is it not unheard of for there to be 2 or more different lines of a morph that is genetically the same?

I'm now going back to my vacation, which I took to try to get away from the stress of situations like this. This kind of crap is one of the reasons why I just don't know if I am cut out for this business any longer.

 

[ataber]

Knowing where they came from can help us with their gentic make up... Were the parent animals wild caught imports??? If so, the Europeans are very well known for being purists when it comes to reptiles, so there might be some collection data or even an exact locality... Who knows, the Enigma morph can be a sub-species for all we know or the genetics can be locality spacific...

i think if we could actually find this out then that would be amazing, but doesnt seem likely that ALL the facts will be known about either morph especially since it seems to have been a "random" occurrence in both situations. those factors you mention(sub-species and locality) could also mean enigma is similar to w&y but not exactly the same as with the albinos they are similar but not exactly the same since you cannot mix them and create more albinos.