Enigma Morph Questions?

[Gregg M]

1.) As far as who really was "first", if these geckos are the same morph, well, Mark has been telling Steve about this strange "morph" for years and years. Mark has been exporting reptiles to Europe for years and years. Mark told me that initially he probably sold a few Enigmas and did not even realilze what he had.

2.) Could it not be possible that these people in Europe hatched out a "new" morph that is similar or even the same as an Enigma? Is it not unheard of for there to be 2 or more different lines of a morph that is genetically the same?

Kelli, you are 100% correct... I never said anyone was lieing... It is entirely possible that Enigmas got into Europe... I was just stating (clearly at that) the "what if"... What if it isnt as cut and dry as originally thought??? I did not come up with these questions I have from nowhere...

I apologize that I failed to meet your expectations as a moderator for this site.

I dont know, I guess it is perfectly fine for someone in a role-model possition such as "moderator for a public forum" to be disrespectful to a member and act somewhat childish...:main_thumbsup:
I am certain if I had done that to you or another member, there would have been a warning in my PM box...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I dont know, I guess it is perfectly fine for someone in a role-model possition such as "moderator for a public forum" to be disrespectful to a member and act somewhat childish...:main_thumbsup:
I am certain if I had done that to you or another member, there would have been a warning in my PM box...

We also have a warning for antagonizing a moderator. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I'm now going back to my vacation, which I took to try to get away from the stress of situations like this. This kind of crap is one of the reasons why I just don't know if I am cut out for this business any longer.

Kelli, STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER!

 

[godzillizard]

What if it isnt as cut and dry as originally thought???

Very little is as "cut and dried" as we like to think--as human beings, we are meaning machines--we have to put everything in a neat little box so we can feel better about ourselves--so we don't feel the crushing power of infinite possibility. We tend to oversimplify so we can feel powerful and significant. that's just my opinion

we are all here to share our love, the rest is just details...

 

[boutiquegecko]

This kind of crap is one of the reasons why I just don't know if I am cut out for this business any longer.

Sorry if I had added fuel to the fire. I think it's entirely possible that the three morphs are connected somehow. I also think that like the mack gene, what we know about the enigma gene may very well change in a years time as well.

 

[dprince]

Nothing about enigmas is cut and dried. Heck, I can't even figure out how a few of us have hatched out black eyed snow enigmas that aren't super snow enigmas and don't have the eclipse gene present. Kelli in particular, and many other here have figured a lot about them, but there is still so much to learn.

Though it would be interesting to know the origination of the enigmas, I'm not sure it would help figure out what the heck is going on genetically with these guys. I mean, how did that help us know anything about the different albino strains? It didn't. It made us like (or dislike, or respect, or whatever) the people who bred and marketed them, but did NOTHING to teach us about the genetics. Breeding them did. If someone is trying to question the ethics of a big breeder, it's certainly not wrong to do so, it just doesn't have any place on this forum.

It's intriguing to think that enigma-like geckos have been in Europe for a while, but until some of us get our hands on these "blue tails" "calicos" whatevers, and get to breed them, it's hard to compare what we don't know.

Just my two cents.

 

[bro paul]

Though it would be interesting to know the origination of the enigmas, I'm not sure it would help figure out what the heck is going on genetically with these guys. I mean, how did that help us know anything about the different albino strains? It didn't.

Good points Debbie...
I guess where I see the difference is that albinism is something we'd seen before in other reptiles (and humans for that matter)...and we have a good understanding of what it basically was. Breeding the three strains did prove some interesting results...but we were still in the realm of the known. The eye traits and the engimas are so interesting in that we really don't have a model to fall back on...that I know of. Well, we probably do for the eye traits...but I'm still so puzzled by the way the enigma gene works...and I GLAD about that! (as we all are, I'm sure) :main_thumbsup: And, you're right...it may not help a bit to really understand what's going on genetically...but who knows, I guess we're just curious about our creations

 

[Wezul]

Random Genetic Mutation

If the Enigma is a random genetic mutation, then how could it possibly keep 'popping up' in their collection? Does the term 'random genetic mutation' mean just that-random, not reoccurring? If they kept popping up it would not be random, wouldn't it be just the opposite? I was also wandering how a breeder wouldn't know what morph/line of geckos these random geckos keep popping up from (over years); what I mean is: If a breeder has multiple projects at one time, wouldn't the breeder need to know what morph/line of breeders the offspring came from in order to sell them as what they are ie: Bells, Trempers, Macks. A breeder would not be able to sell a Bell, Tremper or Mack as a Bell, Tremper or Mack if they didn't know which geckos they came from.
I have given alot of thought on whether I should post my questions, IN NO WAY am I inferring ANY lies/misleading/wrongdoing by anyone, these questions have been on my mind for awhile now if I'm WAY out of line, please just say so.
BTW- I love the Enigma morph and hope to own one someday

 

[Gregg M]

Wes,
You are not out of line... Having your own mind and questioning something full of holes is a good thing... Just be prepared...

Does this all really matter??? To some it does, to others it may not... To me, its fun to look deeper into things... I could be very wrong in my thinking... I will be the first to admit it... But I am interested and I know others are... I just said what I wanted to say... The people reading can do some research if they want and the ones who do not care, can just ignore what I have to say... Its that simple...

 

[ataber]

nothing wrong with questioning thats what we as humans do on a daily basis

I was also wandering how a breeder wouldn't know what morph/line of geckos these random geckos keep popping up from (over years);

as far as that goes, i dont think the bells would particularly know what morph/line their random mutations pop up from b/c of their volume and the fact that they probably are not quite as hands on as most breeders b/c they are wholesalers.

 

[dprince]

Good points Debbie...
I guess where I see the difference is that albinism is something we'd seen before in other reptiles (and humans for that matter)...and we have a good understanding of what it basically was. Breeding the three strains did prove some interesting results...but we were still in the realm of the known. The eye traits and the engimas are so interesting in that we really don't have a model to fall back on...that I know of. Well, we probably do for the eye traits...but I'm still so puzzled by the way the enigma gene works...and I GLAD about that! (as we all are, I'm sure) :main_thumbsup: And, you're right...it may not help a bit to really understand what's going on genetically...but who knows, I guess we're just curious about our creations

It's true, Paul, that albinism is something that had been seen before, even if not in leopard geckos. I was just trying to think of an example of a genetic trait that gecko people could relate to, that had some - interesting? shady? - history that made no difference in how the genetics actually played out.

I totally agree, I love trying to figure out the unknown - especially that darned enigma eye thing!!! :main_laugh: Though it would be interesting to know where the enigma came from, it doesn't matter where it came from - to me personally - because the genetics behind it interest me much more.

 

[Wezul]

nothing wrong with questioning thats what we as humans do on a daily basis



as far as that goes, i dont think the bells would particularly know what morph/line their random mutations pop up from b/c of their volume and the fact that they probably are not quite as hands on as most breeders b/c they are wholesalers.

But using that logic, wouldn't one have to conclude the Bells sell "Leopard geckos" in general and don't breed/sell SPECIFIC morphs? Wouldn't a wholesaler need to know what morph they are, even if they're selling them wholesale, otherwise wouldn't there be ALOT of normals double/triple het for two/three strains of albino? The Bell albinos (Trempers,ect.) would have to be bred to Bell albinos (Trempers,ect.) in order to produce enough Bell (Trempers,ect.) albinos to wholesale. Since it's been stated the Bells were working with Tremper albinos too, wouldn't one think they would have to know WHICH babies were WHICH and would obviously know WHICH line it(Enigma) came from?

And also, what about the 'Random Genetic Mutation', if they kept 'popping up' over YEARS, that would not seem to be too Random.

 

[paulnj]

Here's just one way to lose track of where it came from

Breed TA X TA, BA X BA , TABB X TABB, TPA X TPA and cook everything in a huge container by date or week. Bell, trempers , BB and TA patty all look different in his lines, so no need to wonder the ID of the hatchling. Yikes an "odd" animals came from a group of 200 eggs, where did it come from??

This COULD be the reality of it ???

 

[Wezul]

I would like to think even a large scale breeder would incubate different albino eggs in different incubators, if the point is to produce albinos on a wholesale level, wouldn't a breeder just use one type of albino, unless that breeder IS selling different albino morphs (even wholesale) then that breeder would still have to keep the breeders/babies/eggs seperate from one other in order to sell 'lots' of albinos as 'Bells', 'Trempers'...Since Macks and Pattys look different you would only have to seperate the different ALBINO eggs regardless of the different crosses(Mack/Blizzard) in that albino strain.

Any thoughts on the Random issue?

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

If you were producing 50,000 geckos a year... things may seem random.

Also, if you remember the first Enigmas weren't much to look at. They were all very blah looking. Something like that could go unnoticed for a few seasons in a colony that large.

 

[Wezul]

If you were producing 50,000 geckos a year... things may seem random.

Also, if you remember the first Enigmas weren't much to look at. They were all very blah looking. Something like that could go unnoticed for a few seasons in a colony that large.

I see your point, definetly ALOT of geckos..things could very easily go unnoticed for a few seasons, but (a big BUT) it has been metioned he had noticed different geckos 'popping up' over the years..so it wasn't completely unnoticed.

Sorry, I wasn't clear about my question/any thoughts about the Random thing. I'll try again: IF Enigmas are a 'Random Genetic Mutation', then how could a Random Genetic Mutation keep 'popping up' in a colony if it truly is random? If it kept 'popping up', wouldn't that mean it is more likely a genetic combination than a Random Genetic Mutation?:main_huh:
After all, what are the chances of Multiple Random Genetic Mutations in a single colony/collection over several years?
I am clueless for the most part about Leo genetics.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

A random genetic mutation means that it popped up out of nowhere. A normal gene mutated unexpectedly. The fact that it is reproducible means that it is indeed genetic. The very first animal with the mutated genes is random, all the rest are not. I hope that helps to explain it. (it makes sense in my mind) lol

 

[boutiquegecko]

Another way to look at the randomness is by breeding groups. Say out of one of his female breeding groups an enigma was hatched. But what female was the gene carrier of this new gecko? Time to separate all the females for the rest of the season and hope another enigma hatches out. If not, then next season it's either breed each of those females back to the male and see if it happens again. On such a large scale, I'm sure it is hard to figure out. If the enigma gene carrier was a male and bred to mulitiple groups then I'm sure it might be even harder to figure out, especially if more than one enigma was hatching over numerous seasons before pinpointing who the carrier was etc.
This can even happen on a small scale with any one who uses breeder groups. Does any of this make sense? I think I jumbled it, it's late.

 

[Wezul]

Thanks Jermey & Marlo,
My head hurts now, jk!
So we're talking about a 'het' for Enigma in the original breeding group or colony?

If Enigmas kept 'popping up' over the years from leos that didn't look like Enigmas.

That wouldn't be random would it?

 

[ataber]

no they werent het for enigmas they were actually enigmas but the enigmas we see today are SO much different then what they were originally