enigma observation

[ataber]

it is a good read but i am a vet tech and i have seen Vestibular Disease and it is nothing like what the enigmas do. it may be an inner ear thing in some way but it is not Vestibular Disease.

what the enigmas do is more comparable to a spider ball python. and i think that the circleing thing has more to do with a stress thing then anything eles.

Just My oppinion and yes i have hatched a few enigmas some never showed it and others showed it and grew out of it with in weeks. so far none of the bigger ones that i have to it. but i have seen clutch mates of enigmas do this as well so i dont think that it is only in enigmas. again just an oppinion based on my breeding so far.

good info matt, i also figure it is from stress but some people didnt like that theory lol. nice to hear they grow out of it and also that its also happening with clutch mates.

 

[SteveB]

but i have seen clutch mates of enigmas do this as well so i dont think that it is only in enigmas. again just an oppinion based on my breeding so far.

Thanks for confirming that. So hopefully enigma siblings are being marketed with the same level of disclosure...

 

[SaSobek]

well the clutch mate thing i have only seen twice but they were defanitly not enigmas. and they are still here in my house and will only be givin to freinds and not bred.

some of mine did have the circling thing as hatchlings but like i said they grew out of it

the next part that i am going to tell you do not jump on me about. if any one dose im not posting any thing again on this topic im trying to help this morph out not hurt it. im not saying names because of i dont even think i was suppose to know.


i am doing testing this year breeding enigma to enigma

1) to see if there is a super form (because i did here from some one that breeds more enigmas then all of us (and its not kelli) that there might be a super form but it dosent look much different and is hard to tell appart and the had a bigger problem with spinning) i dont know if this is true but i am as i said before doing a test to see. i will tell all of you what i come up with.


2) is to see if breeding enigma to enigma causes more of the spinning problem as well


the female is ovulating now and the male is in. both do not spin. so we will know soon.

i have heard that kelli has done this already but i am doing this on my own so I know for sure and when i do you will all know.


again i am being up front about what i am doing and im doing this to better understand this morph. if you have any questions let me know i will answer them the best i can.

If this turns into a witch hunt, you are on your own.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I have discussed this at length with my vet. He believes my theory might be well-founded, but I still think it is somehow linked to albinism and optokinetic nystagmus as well. I posted this awhile back, but can't seem to find the post.

I'm not a vet, and I'm certainly not trying to imply that this is a type of vestibular disease or even nystagmus... but it certainly makes more sense to look at possibilities in this direction rather than shoot out a bunch of accusations, conspiracy theories, and flame wars!

Guys, we need to put our heads together, and not bang our heads together! I'm and old lady, and I've been breeding geckos for a long time. Literally EVERY new morph has had it's share of initial problems. It's the serious, responsible keepers and breeders that always solve these issue, and I am 100% confident that this too shall pass.

The Enigma is one of the most exciting new morphs to come into this community in a l-o-n-g time. Some people will be focused on the financial gain, some will be focused on the challenge of working with this new morph, and others will get involved for the pure love and pleasure of having them. We ALL play a very important role in their development. Let's not lose sight of this....

 

[paulnj]

ROCK ON MATT!!! I patiently await your findings. Whether positive or negative, that info will be invauable in furthing the understanding of the morph that has opened door to not only the unknown , but to future amazing animals.

Let's just hope the "super" form , if it does indeed exsist, isn't another white gecko with red eyes:main_laugh:

 

[SaSobek]

hahah well i am sure the super nova will be paul just for you :main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

again i am being up front about what i am doing and im doing this to better understand this morph. if you have any questions let me know i will answer them the best i can.

Matt, honesty and disclosure are the BEST things we can do for each other, and especially for the geckos we all love and cherish! Thank you...

 

[snared99]

Matt, honesty and disclosure are the BEST things we can do for each other, and especially for the geckos we all love and cherish! Thank you...

I have racked my brain and fingers all day trying to research neurologic issue in reptiles, and at the end of my venture i found nothing on vestibular disease being heretitary. I too being a vet tech have see many many cases of vestibular and would agree with matt this is not the case here(but that said i wish it was vestibular because that can be cured) Also vestibular is most oftern assosiated with a inner/outer ear infection, or leison internally(on the side of the head tilt) that would be very odd for this many animals to have the same issue. But if this happens to be a heretiary neuro issue it is very possible.

I have also consulted our reptile vet and their specialist and they belevied this could be as simple as more out crossing, but then again there is so little in avaible about reptiles(esp. in neuro issues). I agree i think we all need to put our heads together here to come out with a positive outcome for this awsome morph.

There is also a possibility of a selenium/vitamen E deficiency, lik ein cattle or sheep/chickens. Live stock often "stargaze" or have neuro issue due to a vitamen def. Of course blood work would be the only solution, but I have not been able to locate referance ranges for those 2 vitamens yet.

I hoped this helped alittle.

 

[SteveB]

Let's just hope the "super" form , if it does indeed exsist, isn't another white gecko with red eyes:main_laugh:

Why not? We need more of those!! Lots more!!!!1!one!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK... this is a question for you more experienced veterinary techs. It is a well-known fact that nystagmus is a common problem in some albinos... particularly with ocular albinism. I have read many studies on this problem with albino rats. Their behavior is very similar to some of the symptoms we see in a few of the Enigmas... had tilt, walking in circles, and the 'Stevie Wonder' head waving.

In your opinion, could the retinal/optic nerves and how they transfer to the brain, play in to this at all? With some forms of nystagmus, when the eye tries to translate the movement of what is seen to the brain, sometimes it is like everything is passing by rapidly, or even spinning. To compensate for this, the animal walks in circles, or has a head tilt to try and compensate for it. In many cases, the brain eventually figures it out and the symptoms subside. Some cases, dyslexia in humans is mis-diagnosed, and is really a 'mutant' form of nystagmus.

At one time, we suspected the 'red-eyed' Enigma was form of ocular albinism, since there was melanin in their skin and not in their eyes. This morph originated in the Bell line. Could it be that what we are seeing in the Enigmas is a unique case of some type of albinistic optic nerve malfunction, and not a case of anything we would normally consider 'neurological'?

 

[LadyGecko]

I think that the Enigmas are both beautiful and fascinating

I appreciate all of the hard work that is being done by everyone that is working with this morph and I find the open discussions of the problems that have been experienced and theories and information that has been shared here collectively to be quite refreshing

Hopefully any problems associated with this morph are things that CAN be worked out and overcome like many of the problems that were associated with other "new morphs" when they first came on the scene

I think that it will be amazing to see what happens with this morph and of course I hope to own one in the future-just to enjoy it's beauty


Good Luck to everyone with their hard work and I wish you all much success

My .02 from someone that keeps these beautiful animals just to enjoy looking at them-lol

Thanks guys for doing all of the hard work that has enabled me to keep some really beautiful Leos

Sandy

 

[snared99]

OK... this is a question for you more experienced veterinary techs. It is a well-known fact that nystagmus is a common problem in some albinos... particularly with ocular albinism. I have read many studies on this problem with albino rats. Their behavior is very similar to some of the symptoms we see in a few of the Enigmas... had tilt, walking in circles, and the 'Stevie Wonder' head waving.

In your opinion, could the retinal/optic nerves and how they transfer to the brain, play in to this at all? With some forms of nystagmus, when the eye tries to translate the movement of what is seen to the brain, sometimes it is like everything is passing by rapidly, or even spinning. To compensate for this, the animal walks in circles, or has a head tilt to try and compensate for it. In many cases, the brain eventually figures it out and the symptoms subside. Some cases, dyslexia in humans is mis-diagnosed, and is really a 'mutant' form of nystagmus.

At one time, we suspected the 'red-eyed' Enigma was form of ocular albinism, since there was melanin in their skin and not in their eyes. This morph originated in the Bell line. Could it be that what we are seeing in the Enigmas is a unique case of some type of albinistic optic nerve malfunction, and not a case of anything we would normally consider 'neurological'?

I think that is a excellent way of veiwing this situation. It is very possible it is a optic nerve malfunction/conpensation. This would explain why some are only seeing the issue when the animals are young, possibly the nerves are reallocating to allow proper function of the animal.

Also i think it would be interesting to take a census and for indivuiduals to let us know the percentage of red eyed enigmas VS crosses that are circling. This would probably give us a better idea as to if this is more a albino issue or not.

 

[bro paul]

I think the fact that most "out grow" the condition is important...and that things seem to be getting better with outcrossing.
So far this season, my enigmas seem to be perfect
Would this trend of improvement lend itself more to believing the condition is neurological or simply a "unique malfunction" due to inbreeding?
Have others seen improvements this season?

 

[snared99]

I think unfortunetly with out the aid of a CAT scan or MRI we will never be able to 100% say this is neurological. I agree with you paul, it is very positive that they are either gorwing out of it or not having the issue at all in newer generations. Shows that all our hard work is hopefully paying off :}

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

It is very possible it is a optic nerve malfunction/conpensation. This would explain why some are only seeing the issue when the animals are young, possibly the nerves are reallocating to allow proper function of the animal.

Is it possible that the 'outgrowing' of this condition is similar to the brain compensating for the malfunction between the optic nerves and the brain getting used to it? I remember when my old dog Max, suffered suddenly from this problem, and he walked in circles, walked diagonally, waved his head around and had a head tilt for quite sometome. It eventually went away. The vet told me his brain simply 'got used to it' and compensated for it!

 

[PSGeckos]

We've done quite a bit of reading regarding Optic Neuritis, this is when the optic nerves myelin sheath is attacked by the bodies own immune system and therefore causing a short circuit, this is a common symptom of Multiple Sclerosis, an often one of the tools for diagnosing the disease.

Optic neuritis is an inflammatory condition involving the optic nerve, which presents with various abnormalities of vision. The patient may notice blurred or distorted vision, reduced color vision, or a blind spot. There is also frequently a history of pain with eye movement, and this may precede the visual loss. The condition usually occurs in adults under 45 years of age, and women are affected much more frequently than men.

The visual deficit may worsen over a period of approximately 7 days, then typically remains stable (at that level) for 3 to 8 weeks, followed by gradual visual improvement. The great majority of patients with optic neuritis will recover much of their vision within 6 months of the onset of optic neuritis.

When a patient with reduced vision presents to the ophthalmologist, vision, eye pressure, and pupillary function is evaluated and the eyes are dilated such that the optic nerves and retina can be examined. There is always an abnormal pupil in optic neuritis, known as an afferent pupillary defect (paradoxically dilates when light is shone in the eye). The optic nerve in this disorder may appear normal or swollen. A visual field (peripheral vision) test may then be completed, and the patient is usually scheduled to have a MRI of the brain. The MRI (in this case) is a brain-imaging study, which will assist in the determination as to whether any central nervous system lesions are present.

The reason we know so much about this is because Pete was unable to work for 2 years and it was suspected MS, he lost his sight in his right eye, although the sight came back he can no longer see colour, MS was never diagnosed but STRESS was!

Just thought i'd throw this input in

Oh and we too are going to be upfront that we have put our Enigma het Bell and our Bell Enigma together, so we will report any problems with their offspring, we have now seperated them.

 

[malt_geckos]

Wow...this thread took off. I kinda forgot about it with all the stress of exams. lol.


But I was thinking maybe inner ear beacause it appears small not just on the outside but on the inside of the ear as well (the canal).

I know Matt you said that you've seen the problem in other animals and they act totally different but maybe this is the geckos way of acting when they have it. No one has seen a leopard gecko with that disorder so we don't really know what they would act like if they had it or not.

And thank you Matt for sharing your project. No one is going to jump down your throat...they have already had enough of that for this year...but just you wait until next year. lol.

As for the optic issues- This is also a possibility as I have observed one enigma having a hard time finding it's food, missing the food multiple times when it was struck at. However, if you're having a problem with your inner ear, it throws everything off: your balance and precision first.

I have also observed a super snow missing its food target as well but shows no other signs like the enigma. We have two female enigmas that are piggies and are right on target with their food and have great eyesite. They don't circle or anything


Next step, if you have an enigma that does circle or acts strange, report feeding behavior so we can see if it is alike.


Mallorie

 

[malt_geckos]

The visual deficit may worsen over a period of approximately 7 days, then typically remains stable (at that level) for 3 to 8 weeks, followed by gradual visual improvement. The great majority of patients with optic neuritis will recover much of their vision within 6 months of the onset of optic neuritis.

This makes sense you know...one gecko was fine for awhile then all of the sudden started acting strange, circling, head tilt worsened, and it was rolling over...then it stablized...started eating again and still acted funny but stopped rolling over and circling like it was before... :main_huh:

 

[boutiquegecko]

Can anyone besides Matt confirm of enigma normal siblings displaying this behavior? I asked in the other thread and it was never answered. I'm also waiting too like Paul asked if anyone's noticed the behavior going away do to outcrossing this year yet?
I know Kelli's busy-does anyone know the findings of the enigma x enigma cross? Regarding the circling etc? Also what do those ones look like?

 

[SteveB]

I think unfortunetly with out the aid of a CAT scan or MRI we will never be able to 100% say this is neurological. I agree with you paul, it is very positive that they are either gorwing out of it or not having the issue at all in newer generations. Shows that all our hard work is hopefully paying off :}

I'm actually somewhat concerned about the fact that they grow out of it, it means dishonest sellers can conveniently fail to mention they suffered from this problem in the first place. We need to stamp out the condition altogether.