enigma observation

[SaSobek]

I know this sounds awful, but my thought on enigmas with "issues" is this...if they have to be hand fed and babied to live...i don't think they should live. A bit of natural selection needs to be taking place I believe to help solve the problems we are seeing in this awesome morph.

Im sorry but i have a big problem with this quote right here.

1) i have hatched well over a thousand babies. so i think i have a right to say this. just because an animal dosen't eat its first meal on its own it should not die. when you were a baby did you go find and eat your first meal alone ? i have had this happen i would say less then 10 times when a baby gecko didnt eat on his own for the first meal. after feeding them one meal worm by hand they usualy start eating. the longest i had ever done this was 1 week and a mealy a day. that animal started eating and grew like a weed after that. (and i think the reason it took a while to eat is because that baby was hatched out of an egg that was from one of my females that survived the fire and was laid 2 weeks after the fire that i had that wiped out 90% of my collection at the time.) that baby that didnt eat for a week grew up and was 75 grams and had babies and no babies had problems eating.

2) enigmas should not be killed for the abnormality of the head tilt/ circling that dose not affect them eating. if there is a gecko that has to be hand feed every day. i think there is a point that a quality of life issue needs to be address. i dont think that the circling or head tilt affects the quality of life that bad that the animals should be killed. in less they dont eat on there own. and to tell you the truth i have never seen this with enigmas. a problem with them eating. i have many enigmas that if i told you how fast they grew you would call me a lier. like my nova that at 2 months old was 30 grams! lets just say i dont think he had a problem eating.

3) now for enigmas that circle and head tilt. as i said before the most i have seen is an enigma that circled as a baby like freash out of the egg and with in 2 weeks i didnt notice it after that. i realy think it is kinda a defence thing at that point. between the stress of hatching and the light. its kinda like they are just looking to get out of the light to me. and i havent seen them do more then 1 full circle so i dont even know if that is circling or trying to get away. i think that with breeding this can be bred out of this morph. and to tell you the truth i just hatched out babies from a male enigma directly from mark bell that i crossed to the F3 facsiolatis. these babies dont act any different then a normal leo the scream and run directly away from you. that should tell you that out crossing is the key here. the more these things are out crossed the better they are going to be.

i do belive that enigmas that act "different " should not be breed for sale. and im going to be doing that with my collection. it is up to each person to do the same but if there are people that are dishonist about this. i am sure that these people will be singled out over time and people wont buy from them.

that all i have to say about this right now. lets breed these things and see what happens.

 

[malt_geckos]

Matt, if you have an issue with with my quote, PM me so we can talk it over. This thread is not for having problems with what someone said, it's for observations on enigmas and all of us trying to find what issue they are having and what is causing it.

 

[miamimike]

Matt or Mallorie...
I think Matt is addressing your statement on what "you feel" should be done with enigmas that are having what you feel are issues worthy of euthanization. I dont feel that his opinion on that issue should be discarded.....and should be heard and respected if you wish yours to be viewed in the same light. I dont think it is reasonable to give an opinion on something on a forum and then say that no one should respond with their opinions or things will be deleted....with the possible exception of kelli and her moderators in my mind anyway. That is just my opinion on the matter and if kelli or her moderators feel my statement is not accurate i will be more than happy to follow THEIR guidelines on the subject.
If you had not made that statement and instead, stayed "on point" about the issues we are seeing....I dont think he probably would have brought up his points on the subject in this thread. If you open the door and give your "opinion" on something, please understand that you are, in fact, opening the door for others to respond with their opinions as well....especially on such a controversial point.
I dont want this to become another thread where people are arguing their opinions any more than anyone else...I think we can all keep it respectful....with the end goal of working together to better our hobby and improve the quality of life for the animals we all care about, being the priority.

 

[PaulSage]

<snip>
I dont want this to become another thread where people are arguing their opinions any more than anyone else...I think we can all keep it respectful....<snip>

Exactly. If someone can't participate in the discussions and/or debates without engaging in personal attacks I would encourage them to keep their comments off the forum. One can have an opinion and another may have a contrary opinion, but there is no need to abandon common courtesy and respect in order to voice said opinions.

(this is more of a preemptive warning than in response to anything specific...)

 

[ataber]

well said mike and matt(SaSobek)

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Also, there is a thread on the "Ethics Forum" in regard to culling geckos, where we all can vote on the poll and share (respectfully) our opinions and feelings on the subject:

http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=9844

 

[malt_geckos]

I just wanted this to stay on topic is all.

I didn't want to respond and start something again but now I will respond seeing as many of you think my view is bad or something.

Matt, I know very well about the babies and the fact they need to be helped out sometimes, however I do believe that if you have to feed a 5 month old gecko by hand and it can't find it's own food in its food dish, then it shouldn't be bred. What I meant by natural selection is not that our geckos need to die, but they need to not be bred at all. They need to be kept as your pet if you bred them. I'm sorry if I ruffled everyone's feathers and I feel a bit attacked right now for stating my opinion that I shouldn't have stated in the first place.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I have had baby geckos that had a hard time getting started, and needed help. They turned out to be very healthy, robust, and beautiful geckos. In the wild, they would have probably died as hatchlings.

Culling does not have to mean killing them... it can simply mean that they should be pulled from breeding projects.

 

[miamimike]

Malt....

I am glad you clarrified your position.....
....and your opinion is as valid as anyone else's....
I think the way it was stated in your thread it was a little misunderstood is all.....sorry you felt attacked.....dont think it was intentional....I just hope we can continue to share ideas and on occassion agree to disagree...not that anyone really disagrees with anyone on this point...but in the future we may....or may not....doesnt mean anyone is right or wrong....and sometimes we may just be misunderstood......i would love to continue "observing" and sharing ideas on this subject.....the more input the better on subjects like this

 

[SaSobek]

my post was not an attack on any one. i used a quote just like every one eles dose to show what they are talking about and i stated my oppinion on it. it was still with in the topic in my oppinon. some one stated that they would not hand feed a baby because of "issues" and i simply stated that i would and gave an explination why.

again it was not attack it was me expressing what i am doing about the observations that i have made.

some of the treads cover many topics and this is one of them you can't talk about observations with out saying what can be done to fix any "issues" that may come up. i belive that is just showing that you have some sort of plain against the "issues" at hand. if the tread dose turn ethical i think it is because we all have different ways of dealing with "issues". i do disagree on what was said and i stated that i did. i didnt once say that anyone was wrong or attack anyone. if it came off that way i am sorry.


if this is getting to ethical will it please be moved to the ethics forum.

 

[malt_geckos]

So I did observe something that may interst some people.

One of our super snows misses her food like the enigma. She is however completely normal other than that. Hmmmm, just trying to put things together. Lol.

 

[miamimike]

Is she within eye shot of an enigma??....Do you think she is trying to immitate an enigma?.....wishing she was one?......but then again....last night WAS Friday night.....a little vodka in the water dish perhaps?..hmmmmm

That is a good point though....there are little quirks from time to time in other morphs....and I wonder if sometimes we dont (not ALWAYS or even most of the time) "see" things that we are looking for even if they may not be there, or present as often or severe as we think. Just a thought.....

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

You know, I'm and old lady and have been breeding geckos for a l-o-n-g time. I have seen just about every 'new' morph from it's introduction! Not one of these 'new' morphs was without it's initial issues. NOT ONE!!!

It was never the originator of these 'new' morphs that observed, disclosed, and worked on these issues... it was the fantastic breeders who took the challenge to work with these geckos that figured out what was really going on with them, corrected it, and improved on it.

We are messing with nature here, people! We are making morph creations that would probably never be made under natural circumstances, or at least not within our lifetimes. Nature has it's way of resolving genetic issues over time. We have stepped in as "Gecko Gods" and forced nature to produce these genetic deviations.

With that, comes the responsibility to figure out just what we did, and how we ar going to fix it. So far, we have done a fantastic job of repairing the damage we have created, and been able to produce healthy and robust morphs from weak and non-thriving genetic abominations.

I am not trying to cast judgment here... I am a leopard gecko breeder, too! All I am trying to say is... that every single 'new' genetic creation we have forced unnaturally on these geckos had it's own inherent set of problems. The caliber of breeders we have today, complete with genetic savvy and exemplary ethics, have collectively strived to improve on what has been created... and done a bang-up job at it to say the least!

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the enigma is no exception. I can hardly wait to see how this exciting and unique 'new' morph develops over the next few years in the hands of some of the finest Leopard Gecko Breeders in the world.

 

[paulnj]

Marcia, I owe you a huge hug for that spot on post.

I KNOW that collectively we can accomplish anything, especially if we share our findings and don't pass judgement on one's short comings that may arise.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I KNOW that collectively we can accomplish anything, especially if we share our findings and don't pass judgement on one's short comings that may arise.

HUGS back at 'ya, Paul!

 

[SaSobek]

well put marcia

 

[miamimike]

....tryin to make me jealous Paul???.....

 

[paulnj]

Love you too Mike ..... in a brotherly kinda way

 

[dprince]

Marcia, what an eloquent way to put it all in words. THANK YOU.

 

[GeckoJunkie]

I feel the love in the house tonight......Paul, Mike maybe you two should get a room though.....LMAO
Great post too Marcia