enigma observation

[PSGeckos]

I'm actually somewhat concerned about the fact that they grow out of it, it means dishonest sellers can conveniently fail to mention they suffered from this problem in the first place. We need to stamp out the condition altogether.

Steve this a very valid point and could be a real problem. Here in the UK a few of us Enigma owners/breeders have voluntarily signed up to a code of conduct. We have so far ascertained that the geckos are about 6-8 months old when they first get symptoms (maybe some of you guys can help with that data those that have had your Enigmas show symptoms) so we would plan on keeping the offspring until this time has passed, and then offer a longer return period on them. Now i was a bit concerned about males, obviously they mature sexually a lot earlier and theoretically could at 6-8 months old serve many females and then the buyer could use the 30 day return, this would lead to abuse. So it is in its early stages.

Can i ask those with afflicted Enigmas, are you noticing the symptoms more in Females or Males?
And how old would you say the geckos first show symptoms?

 

[ataber]

i dont think id follow that "code of conduct"...for one, i dont see the necessity also, your worries about ppl abusing the return, and also b/c not all enigmas show it(apparently most dont at least in the US.) and also what happens when somebody doesnt follow it anyways? the other breeders get angry? realistically its gonna be hard to control unless there is some sort of governing body and actual penalties.

 

[dprince]

You're absolutely right. There is no way to control what breeders choose to do or not do. I encourage people to buy geckos from someone they feel they can trust, and if a buyer has any questions about a geckos' origins, then the buyer can certainly be an advocate for themselves and ask questions of the breeder.

 

[paulnj]

Steve, if I go to an airport and start screaming about a plane crash that once happened and kept stating that I know all planes are faulty and pilots could be covering it up to everyone in walk by, would I still be aloud to bourd my plane?

Just a hypothetical question

 

[bro paul]

This has been a helpful thread so far. I hope it stays that way...(isn't there an ethics forum on here somewhere! lol)

 

[arkreptiles]

I think that is a excellent way of veiwing this situation. It is very possible it is a optic nerve malfunction/conpensation. This would explain why some are only seeing the issue when the animals are young, possibly the nerves are reallocating to allow proper function of the animal.

Also i think it would be interesting to take a census and for indivuiduals to let us know the percentage of red eyed enigmas VS crosses that are circling. This would probably give us a better idea as to if this is more a albino issue or not.

Hi guys, as you may be aware a similar discussion is going on our side of the pond.

We have considered the possibility that the albinism might be a root of the problem but we have two non-albino enigma's one of which does circle and is unsteady on her feet. She has no issues as far as we can tell with light or feeding etc.

I have attached a link to a short clip of her taken a couple of nights ago. She didn't circle this time (camera shy?) but it is clear how unsteady she is.

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee104/arkreptiles/?action=view&current=Enigma1903082.flv

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee104/arkreptiles/?action=view&current=Enigma190308.flv

Any comments/feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Nick & Carrie

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

...(isn't there an ethics forum on here somewhere! lol)

Yes. There is. I would really like the ethical comments to stay out of this thread, or I will simply move the posts to the appropriate forum. Thank you.

 

[SteveB]

Steve, if I go to an airport and start screaming about a plane crash that once happened and kept stating that I know all planes are faulty and pilots could be covering it up to everyone in walk by, would I still be aloud to bourd my plane?

Just a hypothetical question

If planes keep falling out of the sky and you were a member of the pilot's union, I think you'd have every right to be vocal about your concern when speaking with other pilots.

 

[SteveB]

Yes. There is. I would really like the ethical comments to stay out of this thread, or I will simply move the posts to the appropriate forum. Thank you.

There's also a Health and Medications forum for Topics related to medical issues...

 

[PSGeckos]

Yes. There is. I would really like the ethical comments to stay out of this thread, or I will simply move the posts to the appropriate forum. Thank you.

Oppps sorry was that me???

Sorry

 

[SteveB]

Nope it was me. Although the discussion keeps spilling over to the ethics (see the "defective enigma poll" in this same forum)

Anyway, let's get this back on track shall we?

 

[dprince]

Nope it was me. Although the discussion keeps spilling over to the ethics (see the "defective enigma poll" in this same forum)

Anyway, let's get this back on track shall we?

The discussion keeps "spilling over to the ethics" because YOU are the one that keeps bringing it up. As has been pointed out earlier, there is another forum for that.

One thing you and I agree on.......let's get back on track.

Mallory, I totally fell asleep at the wheel and forgot to look at earhole sizes. Doh!!!!

Out of the 30 or so babies out of my bell enigma group, NOT ONE circles. None of them ever did. Dad doesn't circle (enigma het bell), enigma babies don't circle (bell enigmas as well as het bell enigmas), and the siblings (non enigma) don't circle.

 

[PSGeckos]

Our Tangerine Carrot Head from RT has different sized ear holes! his left one is bigger than his right.

And he is fine, just very randy!!! (not sure if you Americans use that termonology!)

 

[malt_geckos]

lol...Randy...hehehe...


Anyway...Has anyone looked to watch their enigmas feeding yet? I would like to know what they do when they feed...if they miss, can they see their food, etc...

Also, someone asked, (sorry I forgot who you are!) what age and sex the issues are most noticable at.

I know this sounds awful, but my thought on enigmas with "issues" is this...if they have to be hand fed and babied to live...i don't think they should live. A bit of natural selection needs to be taking place I believe to help solve the problems we are seeing in this awesome morph.

And one last comment, if anything else comes up about ethics or off topic on this thread, I will personally ask admin to delete it and we will start over. This is a thread I started out of curiousity. I want to better this morph and with all of the help from willing breeders, we can solve this issue and hopefully irradicate it.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Anyway...Has anyone looked to watch their enigmas feeding yet? I would like to know what they do when they feed...if they miss, can they see their food, etc...

Our one RE female that circles in bright light has no issues whatsoever with feeding. She eats mealworms and crickets just like any other Leo. Obviously, if I tried to feed her in the sunlight I'm sure she'd have a problem but that would be an issue with almost all Albinos.

 

[dprince]

I have watched my enigmas feed, and none of them have any problems eating, or getting food. Also, I've not had any (so far, knock on wood!!) that have had any growth issues at all. I wasn't even aware this WAS an issue. :main_huh:

 

[ataber]

just about all of my leos miss sometimes when they "attack" a super, they are live and moving, i dont see that as being something related to enigmas or even necesarily bad...hell i miss my mouth on occasion when eating too :main_laugh:

 

[malt_geckos]

None of ours have growth issues. The one male does have a problem with eating. He misses his targets like crazy! I feel so bad for him. He eventually gets it but it takes about 3 to 4 tries....Our other 2 engima females that we got from Kelli and Steve are great. Neither have issues eating or circling.

Ataber- this is not normal missing. It takes a long time to find the mealworm and get it into the mouth.

 

[marula]

i have 2 red eyes and they never miss a mealie
i has try with one of them to take pics at the "sun light" (not outside, but in front of the windows and here in tuscany the sun is strong right now ) and she look to don't feel confortable (but NEVER show any circle signs)..after that she re-start to move confortable inside tha fauna in 15/20 minutes to the exposure, but nothing else
i have some eggs in the incubator but all babies caming from outcross with different bloodline (geckos from different breeders and different selection with not too much imbreeding )i will try later this year to cross one male that will hatch with one of my afganicus!!

 

[malt_geckos]

Thanks Marula. I too have taken pictures of our enigmas outdoors with no issues. These were not albinos though and the gecko that I have troubles with is NOT albino either..... *thinking*....so...I have no conclusions. lol.