First Enigma Pathology Report

[PSGeckos]

WOW!

Thanks guys, this is really great.
Boah - All if not most of that went right over my head, but we have a breeder here who has just sent some off fo blood tests, so we will forward your ideas to him to send to his vet

Alot more proactive than some here in the UK, still trying to damn the morph!

 

[PSGeckos]

Were these Enigmas that this was done from the Enigma x Enigma pairings?

Our bell enigma was, we also submitted an Enigma het bell, which obviously wasn't and the other breeder's was an Enigma from Kelli, so i'm sure it would'nt of been an Enig x Enig pairing.

 

[lytlesnake]

This is incredible information, just a thought could the spinning and movements be caused by an equilibrium problem? I don't know if it's right but thought I'd throw it out there.

I don't know if that's the root cause, but yes, in my opinion equilibrium is a major problem. Why do I think this? Because the one I've got with problems flips on her back regularly while striking at a worm. She appears to have permanent vertigo.

 

[Baoh]

Equilibrium issues and other neuropathies can be the result of the disease I mentioned.

 

[crotaphytidae]

I just read the links that you put up baoh, these have really good information on them but I don't think that this disorder is the problem because if the geckos were that sensitive to light then they wouldn't have the calm demeanor that my two have, unless I missed something, the geckos would hate to be taken out of their cages and be really skittish in my opinion and good luck getting them to hold still outside in the day. I think these issues are due to something else. But again great info.:main_thumbsup:

 

[KelliH]

I would like to see a comparative analysis of blood samples from 10+ enigmas and 10+ of their normal (non-enigma) siblings, checking for calcitonin, VitD status, calcium, PTH and PTHrps, and protoporphyrin. Actually, since this would be even more useful with more animals and could likely be done without lethal effect, a big breeder or two could get together to donate the materials from a sizable collection of animals.

It's already being done.

By the way, I don't know if this has ever been mentioned, but who started the whole thing about claiming the enigma trait is codominant? It doesn't seem like anything other than being simply dominant from what I have seen.

I've been saying this since I first produced them, it seems that some people have a hard time comprehending that fact.

 

[daniellebluetoo]

I just read the links that you put up baoh, these have really good information on them but I don't think that this disorder is the problem because if the geckos were that sensitive to light then they wouldn't have the calm demeanor that my two have, unless I missed something, the geckos would hate to be taken out of their cages and be really skittish in my opinion and good luck getting them to hold still outside in the day. I think these issues are due to something else. But again great info.:main_thumbsup:

YES, good info Boah. Whats your background, if I may ask? Most of it went over my head as well, BUT my partner is in medical research and understood it

I have 3 Enigmas, 2 produced this yr. and the third is 2-3 yrs old I believe, the younger 2 are E to non E breeding and the older is unknown as she originated from Mark Bell.

Now, the way I have my geckos set up is in a large closet in my livingroom, next to the deck with giant sliding glass doors. When I clean feed, or anything, I do it in front of the deck doors, usually with the curtains open so I can have good light. I have noticed that the oldest E and one of the younger E's will walk circles when exposed to the sunlight, but the third so far does not. Also, the older one of these two is pretty personable and isn't stressed by handling and such, but the younger of the two that circle isn't as tame and will circle any time I am in her tub or have disturbed her, regardless of sunlight........

I have no idea what this means, just thought I would share.

OH, and my partner with the pathology background suggested that maybe these geckos need to be exposed to natural sunlight in order to make the vitD. I told him they were nocturnal, he just shrugged his shoulders...(not a gecko guy) but at least he tried:main_thumbsup:

it seemed logical enough, and probably too easy to be true, but is ther any one who might have an opinion on it?

 

[Gazz]

OH, and my partner with the pathology background suggested that maybe these geckos need to be exposed to natural sunlight in order to make the vitD.

Or maybe making them a little more special by raseing young and giving to breeders.Bugs that are natrally high in calcium silkworms/phoenix worms/butter worms'etc.Instread of mealworms/crickets cali powded up.Maybe worh trying to see if there's any improvment ?? they maybe be able to absorb the calcium better being all natural.

 

[Baoh]

I just read the links that you put up baoh, these have really good information on them but I don't think that this disorder is the problem because if the geckos were that sensitive to light then they wouldn't have the calm demeanor that my two have, unless I missed something, the geckos would hate to be taken out of their cages and be really skittish in my opinion and good luck getting them to hold still outside in the day. I think these issues are due to something else. But again great info.:main_thumbsup:

Well, there are number of different types of porphyria and protoporphyria in addition to this possibility of existing in geckos instead of humans (where it is studied and characterized), so it doesn't have to behave 100% the same. If there are six human variants known (just for example), this one in geckos could be a seventh nonidentical one.

 

[Baoh]

It's already being done.



I've been saying this since I first produced them, it seems that some people have a hard time comprehending that fact.

They are already checking for all of the markers I mentioned?

 

[Baoh]

YES, good info Boah. Whats your background, if I may ask? Most of it went over my head as well, BUT my partner is in medical research and understood it

I have 3 Enigmas, 2 produced this yr. and the third is 2-3 yrs old I believe, the younger 2 are E to non E breeding and the older is unknown as she originated from Mark Bell.

Now, the way I have my geckos set up is in a large closet in my livingroom, next to the deck with giant sliding glass doors. When I clean feed, or anything, I do it in front of the deck doors, usually with the curtains open so I can have good light. I have noticed that the oldest E and one of the younger E's will walk circles when exposed to the sunlight, but the third so far does not. Also, the older one of these two is pretty personable and isn't stressed by handling and such, but the younger of the two that circle isn't as tame and will circle any time I am in her tub or have disturbed her, regardless of sunlight........

I have no idea what this means, just thought I would share.

OH, and my partner with the pathology background suggested that maybe these geckos need to be exposed to natural sunlight in order to make the vitD. I told him they were nocturnal, he just shrugged his shoulders...(not a gecko guy) but at least he tried:main_thumbsup:

it seemed logical enough, and probably too easy to be true, but is ther any one who might have an opinion on it?

My background is in pharmaceutical research and a tiny bit of agrotech, both small molecule and large (biologics), but I am currently devoted to biologics solely.

My Enigma het RAPTOR female is extremely "tame" and enjoys being held as far as I can tell. She also has relatively poor striking aim when trying to capture prey items and tends to circle more when the lights are at a brighter setting. When they are off and I use only a red LED to orient myself around their darkened room at night to ease their stress, she does not circle as much or at all. By circle, I mean the motion of her head. She does not walk in circles or anything like that.

If I were a bit more cold about this, I'd test her bones versus the bones of an non-enigma sibling from another dam that was an enigma, but I do not want to put either of them through that.

 

[Baoh]

Or maybe making them a little more special by raseing young and giving to breeders.Bugs that are natrally high in calcium silkworms/phoenix worms/butter worms'etc.Instread of mealworms/crickets cali powded up.Maybe worh trying to see if there's any improvment ?? they maybe be able to absorb the calcium better being all natural.

This is invoking a naturalistic fallacy.

 

[Baoh]

By the way, folks, I am not claiming this is what the enigma morph is having, but it makes a heap of sense, so it should be specifically examined in order to try and exclude it as a diagnosis in case it is not what is affecting these geckos.

 

[Lottiz]

This is very interesting....
-does it mean enigmas can have metabolic bone disease easier then others?

In May I was out of calcium and my plan was to buy more at the next show (one week later), I totaly forgot it and when I came back home I had to make an order on internet, so it took an other week before I had the calcium home.
3 of my enigmas showed slightly MBD after 2 weeks with out calcium, but I didn't saw it at that time. I noticed it 2 weeks later.
I had one more enigma and one non enigma sibling who was at the same age 6-8w) and who didn't affected at all.
All other 15-20 babies (not related to any enigmas at 6-8 weeks) was perfekt except for one raptor.

-Lottiz

 

[Baoh]

Since MBD is a catch-all category of illnesses, it may be associated by virtue of this lack of mineralization. However, it must be noted that this could be primary itself or secondary to a primary condition (such as what I have suggested, depending upon what eventually is determined).

By the way, if those of you who are submitting samples and animals do test for markers of my protoporphyria/porphyria variant hypothesis and it is confirmed, I'd be happy to compile the data, generate a comprehensive full text, and submit it to a journal or journals for peer review and, hopefully, publication. Absolutely full acknowledgments would of course be given to all parties involved.

Just throwing that out there. If those markers of my hypothesis are tested and it is excluded by the results, then this offer would not apply (I can't take credit for a suggestion I did not make).

 

[Baoh]

This also raises new ethical concerns, depending upon the future findings. Now, before everyone goes crazy by labeling it disease/disorder and therefore "bad", remember that albinism can be viewed as a disease/disorder, and most gecko folks love their albino varieties. If it is a porphyria-like condition, I would have to reconsider continuing the projects I have which involve Enigmas. However, the key criterion for this evaluation should be a quality of life issue for the geckos. In my opinion and experience, my Enigma does not in any way appear to be in pain or discomfort, and that would be a primary concern. So, that's reassuring. Still, due to lack of mineralization as well as strain placed upon the liver, we may wish to avoid overstressing these geckos. That may mean not incorporating giant genes into these projects and being extra careful not to let these softies get too fat, for just two examples.

It would be cool to check the W&Y geckos for this stuff, too.

 

[Purpleskyes]

Very interesting report. I have some bell ablinos that do the circle motions just with their heads when they are out in natural light I have put this down to them trying to focus their eyesight. I do have an enigma he is from Arkreptiles in the Uk they along with Ps geckos had the report done so i knew when buying an enigma it would be a very good idea to go with them. My enigma male is an enigma het bell and he is in perfect health as far as i can see he eats well, poos fine. He also has no problems whatsoever in natural light and he is always up at the front for you to take him out so he can have a run around. He is currently around 5/6 months old.

 

[daniellebluetoo]

My background is in pharmaceutical research and a tiny bit of agrotech, both small molecule and large (biologics), but I am currently devoted to biologics solely.

My Enigma het RAPTOR female is extremely "tame" and enjoys being held as far as I can tell. She also has relatively poor striking aim when trying to capture prey items and tends to circle more when the lights are at a brighter setting. When they are off and I use only a red LED to orient myself around their darkened room at night to ease their stress, she does not circle as much or at all. By circle, I mean the motion of her head. She does not walk in circles or anything like that.

If I were a bit more cold about this, I'd test her bones versus the bones of an non-enigma sibling from another dam that was an enigma, but I do not want to put either of them through that.

Hmmm, by circle, like a cat watching the blades of a fan? Mine circle like a dog chasing his tail....lol... cats dogs geckos...

Boah, do you have an opinion about exposure to natural sunlight being beneficial?

Interesting background you got there! I'm sure it will help as we find out more about this stuff. I think there are now SO many more questions about the enigmas than there were before, whew!:main_no:
Thanks for all the input!

 

[Baoh]

Well, I don't keep cats, but I am imaging that is similar to what I am describing.

I don't yet see how the natural sunlight could have an effect. As stated, the animal is nocturnal. I'm sure some folks also use vitD3 just becuase it happens to be in their supplements unintentionally on their parts or because they want to "make sure". Also, they are probably getting a dose of all types of D when they consume something like a pinky. I don't know about its existence or lack of it in insects. I mean, if you wanted, you could just buy a UVB bulb or take it outside if you like, but it could also be potentially worse for the animal, too. If only they could talk.

 

[Stevie]

Well, I don't keep cats, but I am imaging that is similar to what I am describing.

I don't yet see how the natural sunlight could have an effect. As stated, the animal is nocturnal. I'm sure some folks also use vitD3 just becuase it happens to be in their supplements unintentionally on their parts or because they want to "make sure". Also, they are probably getting a dose of all types of D when they consume something like a pinky. I don't know about its existence or lack of it in insects. I mean, if you wanted, you could just buy a UVB bulb or take it outside if you like, but it could also be potentially worse for the animal, too. If only they could talk.

In nature, the animals tend to be active at night, but also during dusk and dawn. It is thought that they use that bit of sunlight to produce there own vit. D3. Besides that, grasshoppers (of crickets I don't know) poses a lot of vit. D3 by nature (we measured it! ). A UV lamp could therefore be useful but only short periods per day....

Greets,

Stevie