First Enigma Pathology Report

[Gregg M]

Far from conclusive but good to see anyway. If not for the Enigma keeping population than for yourself. I have to wonder if what the pathology report is showing can just be poor supplementation and or improper diet in your collection. Crickets and mealworms alone are a far cry from a leos natural diet.

Along with this info, I would like to see your supplementation and feeding records if available.

It would be great if every Enigma breeder could collectively give up a few Enigmas for the cause. Also I feel that the occular albino theory should be proven or disproven as well. I happen to believe that they are not occular albinos at all. Also, I think that more should be done as far as the nervous system goes. These are just a few of my thoughts and questions.

 

[PSGeckos]

Far from conclusive but good to see anyway. If not for the Enigma keeping population than for yourself. I have to wonder if what the pathology report is showing can just be poor supplementation and or improper diet in your collection. Crickets and mealworms alone are a far cry from a leos natural diet.

Along with this info, I would like to see your supplementation and feeding records if available.

It would be great if every Enigma breeder could collectively give up a few Enigmas for the cause. Also I feel that the occular albino theory should be proven or disproven as well. I happen to believe that they are not occular albinos at all. Also, I think that more should be done as far as the nervous system goes. These are just a few of my thoughts and questions.

No thats fine, we questioned this ourselves!
But there were two geckos from our collection and the third from ArkReptiles, so this would mean we both have poor husbandry and supplimentation procedures.

We supply a pot of calcium at all times in the geckos tubs, this is across our whole collection, as well as sprinkling calcium with mealies which are in the tubs at all time, these are refreshed every other day, with one day swapping the calcium with ACE vit suppliment.
We also use Zolcal - D in there water.
We use mealworms as a staple diet, locusts are offered once a week in breeding season, with the rare waxworm offered.

I believe Kelli is looking into the ocular side of things as well as blood tests etc.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

I've also been wondering about the ocular albino status of the Bell Enigma. A lot of the ones I've seen lately don't look like they have truely black pigment...rather, it looks like a very dark maroon.

 

[Gregg M]

No thats fine, we questioned this ourselves!
But there were two geckos from our collection and the third from ArkReptiles, so this would mean we both have poor husbandry and supplimentation procedures.

We supply a pot of calcium at all times in the geckos tubs, this is across our whole collection, as well as sprinkling calcium with mealies which are in the tubs at all time, these are refreshed every other day, with one day swapping the calcium with ACE vit suppliment.
We also use Zolcal - D in there water.
We use mealworms as a staple diet, locusts are offered once a week in breeding season, with the rare waxworm offered.

I believe Kelli is looking into the ocular side of things as well as blood tests etc.

Thank you very much for the rundown. I did not think you were giving "poor husbandry". Infact it looks good by the general husbandry standards. What is the nutritional breakdown of locusts??? Personally, I do not believe in a staple diet of anything for all reptiles including snakes unless ofcorse it is a specialized feeder but it seems to be a common trend for keepers to offer staple diets that consist of meal worms. Did you have any non-Enigmas from your collection tested as well??? By the way, I think what you are doing is great and a huge step in the right direction...

I've also been wondering about the ocular albino status of the Bell Enigma. A lot of the ones I've seen lately don't look like they have truely black pigment...rather, it looks like a very dark maroon.

Thats one of the reasons why I do not feel the are ocular albinos, especially after seeing Tremper and LV Enigmas. So I think any problems involved with ocular albinism can be ruled out. This is just my opinion right now on the subject. I do not see a reason to suspect that bright light or normal stress will cause the spinning and head tilting. Why would it be any different from any other albino morph??? Plus the same thing happens in the non-albino form... Also I feel that the inner ear theory would be a good one if a leos inner ear was as developed or as advanced as a bipedal.

 

[KelliH]

They are already checking for all of the markers I mentioned?

Yes, it is a long term study that involves breeding and egging. We should get short term necro and histo reports on some of them very soon though. This includes Enigmas and I also sent them some non Enigmas so they would have something to compare to.

By the way, if those of you who are submitting samples and animals do test for markers of my protoporphyria/porphyria variant hypothesis and it is confirmed, I'd be happy to compile the data, generate a comprehensive full text, and submit it to a journal or journals for peer review and, hopefully, publication. Absolutely full acknowledgments would of course be given to all parties involved.

We actually sent our group to a place that will be doing a write up. We are having more than necorops done; it is a longterm study. The people that actually DO the research will be writing up any papers.

Thats one of the reasons why I do not feel the are ocular albinos, especially after seeing Tremper and LV Enigmas. So I think any problems involved with ocular albinism can be ruled out. This is just my opinion right now on the subject. I do not see a reason to suspect that bright light or normal stress will cause the spinning and head tilting. Why would it be any different from any other albino morph??? Plus the same thing happens in the non-albino form... Also I feel that the inner ear theory would be a good one if a leos inner ear was as developed or as advanced as a bipedal.

The type of ocular albinism I believe them to be is actually called "Oculocutaneous Ocular Albinism".

taken from the web, but this is a good desription:

Oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) presents with a congenital reduction or absence of melanin pigment in the skin, hair and eyes. The reduction in the hair and skin results in a change in color but no change in the development or function of these tissues, while the absence of melanin pigment in the eye leads to abnormal development and function. Of particular interest are mutations that are associated with a slow accumulation of pigment in the hair and eyes over time, while retaining the ocular defects of albinism.

The reason some of the Albino Enigmas (especially the Tremper/Rainwaters) show the lack of black pigment is because they are albino leopard geckos. The non albino Enigmas are what I believe to be ocular albinos, they albino enigmas are what I believe to be albino ocular albinos. Does that make sense? Anyway, it's just a theory.

 

[Baoh]

In nature, the animals tend to be active at night, but also during dusk and dawn. It is thought that they use that bit of sunlight to produce there own vit. D3. Besides that, grasshoppers (of crickets I don't know) poses a lot of vit. D3 by nature (we measured it! ). A UV lamp could therefore be useful but only short periods per day....

Greets,

Stevie

If this is done, mind the eyes.

 

[Baoh]

Far from conclusive but good to see anyway. If not for the Enigma keeping population than for yourself. I have to wonder if what the pathology report is showing can just be poor supplementation and or improper diet in your collection. Crickets and mealworms alone are a far cry from a leos natural diet.

Along with this info, I would like to see your supplementation and feeding records if available.

It would be great if every Enigma breeder could collectively give up a few Enigmas for the cause. Also I feel that the occular albino theory should be proven or disproven as well. I happen to believe that they are not occular albinos at all. Also, I think that more should be done as far as the nervous system goes. These are just a few of my thoughts and questions.

I can look right at my Enigma and see that she is not afflicted with ocular albinism.

 

[Baoh]

Yes, it is a long term study that involves breeding and egging. We should get short term necro and histo reports on some of them very soon though. This includes Enigmas and I also sent them some non Enigmas so they would have something to compare to.



We actually sent our group to a place that will be doing a write up. We are having more than necorops done; it is a longterm study. The people that actually DO the research will be writing up any papers.

I am glad you are checking for protoporphyrin levels. I never saw that mentioned before here, but I didn't search, either. It's good to see that it is being included, though.

I'm not sure how to interpret that last sentence, as the capitalization for emphasis is something I might consider excessive. I wasn't trying to take anything from anyone if that is what you are thinking. I have much behind my name and this would have been free and for the sake of the community. I get a salary for my own work.

 

[Baoh]

Another count against ocular albinism is X-linkage while one against oculocutaneous is the recessive nature.

 

[KelliH]

I'm not sure how to interpret that last sentence, as the capitalization for emphasis is something I might consider excessive. I wasn't trying to take anything from anyone if that is what you are thinking. I have much behind my name and this would have been free and for the sake of the community. I get a salary for my own work.

I apologize if you think capitalization for emphasis is excessive. The word DO was typed in all caps in order to emphasize the word in the sentence. The point I was making was that the professor and grad students that are doing the research will be writing up any documents. I'm not worried about anyone taking anything from me, I couldn't care less. I'm only speaking for myself here of course but why would I send all of the information to a complete and total stranger such as yourself? As far as your name, I never stated anything about that and/or your reputation as I know nothing of either since I have never seen you post your name here.

 

[KelliH]

Another count against ocular albinism is X-linkage while one against oculocutaneous is the recessive nature.

I don't believe that is a count against it at all. If Enigmas are ocular albinos, and please, let me state again as I have many times, that is simply one person's opinion (mine), I would think it is possible that it could be inherited in a way other than recessively.

I can look right at my Enigma and see that she is not afflicted with ocular albinism.

Really? And you can tell this... how?

BTW, there is a form of ocular albinism that is in fact a dominant trait.

 

[Baoh]

I apologize if you think capitalization for emphasis is excessive. The word DO was typed in all caps in order to emphasize the word in the sentence. The point I was making was that the professor and grad students that are doing the research will be writing up any documents. I'm not worried about anyone taking anything from me, I couldn't care less. I'm only speaking for myself here of course but why would I send all of the information to a complete and total stranger such as yourself? As far as your name, I never stated anything about that and/or your reputation as I know nothing of either since I have never seen you post your name here.

KelliH, I was not aware that a professor and grad students were already planning of all that out. As far as I knew, it was a veterinary tox report with necropsies involving histological analysis. I did not know this was part of a larger research project already. I was only offering to help.

 

[Baoh]

I don't believe that is a count against it at all. If Enigmas are ocular albinos, and please, let me state again as I have many times, that is simply one person's opinion (mine), I would think it is possible that it could be inherited in a way other than recessively.



Really? And you can tell this... how?

BTW, there is a form of ocular albinism that is in fact a dominant trait.

Well, it's a matter of parsimony, so it behaving in a manner heretofore unseen makes it less likely. Not impossible. Less probable. That makes it a count against it. I did not say it ruled ocular albinism out.

I have seen a few humans with ocular albinism and I do work on opthalmological projects. The eyes of those afflicted are easy to discern from the eyes of those who are not. If you can have an enigma that does not display an albino eye, then those enigmas do not possess ocular albinism as it is defined.

Yes, and if you take another look at the portion of my post that you quoted, you will see that I said that oculocutaneous abinism is recessive, not simple ocular albinism. I said ocular albinism was X-linked. In animals expressing x and y sex chromosomes, that would make it (ocular, not oculocutaneous) behave in a dominant fashion.

 

[godzillizard]

Just found an awesome article: http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/16/1/42.pdf I thought alot of us on here would really enjoy reading it. I know mice are not geckos, but I think there is some extremely interesting information in this article/report. :main_thumbsup:

 

[KelliH]

That is a cool article, thanks for posting that.

 

[godzillizard]

Could it be a thyroid (calcitonin) issue? Is it possible that we are giving our geckos so much calcium that they're unable to absorb enough magnesium? (since calcium and magnesium compete for the same absorption mechanisms) Also, ALOT of us use wheat bran as our feeders substrate, even though the phytic acid in it interferes with calcium absorption. How complex/compound is this issue/symptom?!?!?!? This whole thing makes me want to go to school and become a dietician :main_thumbsup:

 

[KelliH]

KelliH, I was not aware that a professor and grad students were already planning of all that out. As far as I knew, it was a veterinary tox report with necropsies involving histological analysis. I did not know this was part of a larger research project already. I was only offering to help.

Oh my, I'm sorry I guess I was not very specific in my wording. I should have been more so. Your offer of help is appreciated of course.

If you can have an enigma that does not display an albino eye, then those enigmas do not possess ocular albinism as it is defined.

I strongly disagree. One of the definitions of ocular albinism is that the eye lacks melanin pigment, which I believe that Enigma eyes, even the non albino ones, do. I started a new thread and posted a bunch of pictures of non albino Enigma eyes, and a few normal leo eyes to compare to. Do you think the Enigma eyes are lacking melanin? If not then what do you think is going on with their eyes? I would love to get a discussion going in the new thread I started. My interest is finding out what is going on with the Enigmas genetically. Of course I have my opinions but we all do! I'm happy to find out any information that I can, whether it supports my hypothesis or not.

http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=28543

 

[Baoh]

The cal-mag competition involves docking, so it would be more of a dietary thing where relatively large amounts of each would compete for absorption in the gut itself if that were the culprit.

I asked about the calcitonin possibility, I think, but pretty much everything open-ended bears repeating until this is solved.

 

[Baoh]

Oh my, I'm sorry I guess I was not very specific in my wording. I should have been more so. Your offer of help is appreciated of course.



I strongly disagree. One of the definitions of ocular albinism is that the eye lacks melanin pigment, which I believe that Enigma eyes, even the non albino ones, do. I started a new thread and posted a bunch of pictures of non albino Enigma eyes, and a few normal leo eyes to compare to. Do you think the Enigma eyes are lacking melanin? If not then what do you think is going on with their eyes? I would love to get a discussion going in the new thread I started. My interest is finding out what is going on with the Enigmas genetically. Of course I have my opinions but we all do! I'm happy to find out any information that I can, whether it supports my hypothesis or not.

http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=28543

Ocular albinism is not that simple. The strongest confirmation is to examine the retina. Not the iris. The iris is what we like to look at for beauty but it's meaningless in this context.

 

[KelliH]

The iris is what we like to look at for beauty but it's meaningless in this context.

According to what I have read (granted it's been on the Net ), the Iris can have reduced pigment though. It mainly does affect the retina in most cases, but sometimes can affect areas of the Iris as well. I would expect the reduced pigmentation in the Iris to be white, not red or orange though... so maybe you're right. Grrr I am impatient, I want to find out what's going on with the eyes!