First Enigma Pathology Report

[PSGeckos]

Ok, so we had 3 effected Enigmas sent off for necropsies to see if there were any anatomical defects to be found.

The pathology report we recieved back gave us mixed emotions, we knew this would never give us a difinitive answers, it can be viewed on our site:

http://www.psgeckos.co.uk/enigma.php

We are still going ahead and testing with help of other breeders to try and get more conclusive answers, but as promised we said we would share with the community and would welcome any ideas or feedback.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Thank you for sharing your findings. At least this is a big leap toward finding out what's going on!

 

[Isis]

I have but one suggestion- it is just my guess. Maybe if the enigma suffer from lack of calcium absorbance from food it could affect the signalling at cellular level- Ca2+ is the major signaling pathways messenger.
I think it is not a very strong theory because lack of calcium affects all cellular processes, but there were no abnormalities in any organs.

Still it is worth considering! Maybe the body is in such a shortage of Ca that it drains it all from bone and supplies the most important organs, meaning the brain is not sufficiently supplied but most of organs get the sufficient ammount.

I don't think I've helped much but maybe some cytochemical staining of biopsies from different organs against Ca2+ can help to answer that?

 

[KelliH]

Hey Guys,

I'm glad you posted the report. I have lots of questions about the findings as you know. Hopefully we will find out more soon when I get some preliminary results back from Dr. Millichamp.

 

[dprince]

Intriguing results!! Thanks so much for sharing.

 

[Stevie]

Maybe if the enigma suffer from lack of calcium absorbance from food it could affect the signalling at cellular level- Ca2+ is the major signaling pathways messenger.
I think it is not a very strong theory because lack of calcium affects all cellular processes, but there were no abnormalities in any organs.

Still it is worth considering! Maybe the body is in such a shortage of Ca that it drains it all from bone and supplies the most important organs, meaning the brain is not sufficiently supplied but most of organs get the sufficient ammount.

This was also the first thing that came to my mind when I read the pathology report. The liver in two of the three animals was fatty, isn't that a sing? I know the liver also plays an important role in the vit. D3/calcium story. Still, the 'enigma-morph' lives up to its name. Perhaps further research will give more clarity!

Greets,

Stevie

 

[Isis]

I was thinking about boosting enigmas with some medicine that could help them protect their boned and nervous system (maybe something against osteoporosis?)- I suppose the breed we find so charming could be an effect of a mutation in one of the calcium binding proteins? It is more intriguing than everything concerning enigmas so far...

 

[Isis]

double...

 

[Ccrashca069]

Were these Enigmas that this was done from the Enigma x Enigma pairings?

 

[Baoh]

They would be dead if they absorbed no calcium from food. I would suspect it to be a metabolic effect instead of one of absorption. Perhaps a nonfunctional isoform of one of the calcium regulation proteins or hormones (there are several). What was also interesting and not touched upon in the posts above is the lack of erythropoietic activity in the marrow. I'm wondering if there is a protoporphyrin issue involved. It's interesting, as whatever is causing the calcium issue could be leading the bodies of afflicted geckos to mount a compensatory response that may involve excessive production of protoporphyrin isoforms. This can increase spotting and other pigmentation changes in birds as well as strengthen egg shells when calcium is deficient in supply. Perhaps this could be occurring in the bones of these geckos as well.

I would like to see a comparative analysis of blood samples from 10+ enigmas and 10+ of their normal (non-enigma) siblings, checking for calcitonin, VitD status, calcium, PTH and PTHrps, and protoporphyrin. Actually, since this would be even more useful with more animals and could likely be done without lethal effect, a big breeder or two could get together to donate the materials from a sizable collection of animals.

Also, of those sent for full analysis, it would be good to check the bones for increased protoporphyrin deposition as a compensatory measure.

Finally, allow for analysis of eggs shells from parents of enigmas. Check the calcium and protoporphyrin levels of the shells that hatched enigmas and non-enigmas from enigma dams as well as the same from from dams that were not themselves enigmas but produced enigma and non-enigma offspring.

That would confirm or exclude a lot.

By the way, I don't know if this has ever been mentioned, but who started the whole thing about claiming the enigma trait is codominant? It doesn't seem like anything other than being simply dominant from what I have seen.

Anyway, the above should give you folks some investigative direction.

 

[Baoh]

I was thinking about boosting enigmas with some medicine that could help them protect their boned and nervous system (maybe something against osteoporosis?)- I suppose the breed we find so charming could be an effect of a mutation in one of the calcium binding proteins? It is more intriguing than everything concerning enigmas so far...

No. You don't treat the symptom without knowing the cause in this case.

A rash decision like that might result in esophageal erosion.

An operation is to be performed with a scalpel. Not a claymore.

 

[Baoh]

I am also wondering if the impaired erythropoiesis is secondary and due to hepatic dysfunction.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

By the way, I don't know if this has ever been mentioned, but who started the whole thing about claiming the enigma trait is codominant? It doesn't seem like anything other than being simply dominant from what I have seen.

Most of this is way above my head, but I at least know a little about this one. :main_laugh: When they first came out, it was thought the (what we now know as) Enigma was the het form and the red-eye Enigma (aka Bell Enigma) was the homo form. I think it was Kelli who first suggested the trait was dominate, and it took some time to prove. Maybe some people just never got the memo? By now it should be old news.

 

[Baoh]

You'd want to check iron levels, too, but I imagine that would be standard blood work.

 

[Baoh]

Most of this is way above my head, but I at least know a little about this one. :main_laugh: When they first came out, it was thought the (what we now know as) Enigma was the het form and the red-eye Enigma (aka Bell Enigma) was the homo form. I think it was Kelli who first suggested the trait was dominate, and it took some time to prove. Maybe some people just never got the memo? By now it should be old news.

Ah, thanks for that. I guess people just need to either catch up or stop parroting.

Why do so many people on this site use "dominate" in place of "dominant"? The former is not an adjective.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Ah, thanks for that. I guess people just need to either catch up or stop parroting.

Why do so many people on this site use "dominate" in place of "dominant"? The former is not an adjective.

I use it because I'm a terrible speller, it's 2AM, and I have preggo brain fog.

 

[Baoh]

By the way, you guys might want to look over this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietic_protoporphyria

and this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoporphyrin

If this is an autosomal dominant form of this disease of variant of a related illness, it could account for the liver issue and more and would also work with what we (little) know genetically about enigmas.

 

[Baoh]

I use it because I'm a terrible speller, it's 2AM, and I have preggo brain fog.

I make mistakes, too.

I see a lot of others copying it, though, regularly.

 

[Baoh]

After thinking about this more and more and considering things like the odd pigmentation, including ocular pigmentation, as well as the circling crap, this would fit oh so well with some variant of a dominant porphyria.

Cool. "Vampire" geckos. lol

 

[crotaphytidae]

This is incredible information, just a thought could the spinning and movements be caused by an equilibrium problem? I don't know if it's right but thought I'd throw it out there.