Miracle Grow Perlite

B

Baoh

New Member
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Saint Louis, MO
eric said:
Thanks for bring that bit of info to my attention! I was reading from the powder MG, didn't realize there was a difference. I stand corrected.

Still not using it, emergency or not. You go ahead and use it, for me the risk is way to high and it should be for you as well!
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Can you offer me a well founded reason why the risk is way too high after I provided those numbers? I'm not saying it should be used. I am noticing that gut feeling is being chosen over anything logical thus far, however. If you or anyone else might like to provide a reason why those additives in those amounts constitute a realistic danger, I am all eyes.
 
Golden Gate Geckos

Golden Gate Geckos

Mean Old Gecko Lady
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Can you offer me a well founded reason why the risk is way too high after I provided those numbers?
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Not speaking for Eric, but I can offer my own well-founded reason why the risk is too high... I am just too chicken, so I wouldn't risk it! Leopard gecko eggs are permeable. This means they can absorb chemicals as well as water through their soft shells. This fertilizer compound is designed for plants to absorb through their root systems, not living tissue.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have seen how spilled fertilizer can actually burn areas of my lawn. I surely wouldn't want that for a growing embryo.
 
Wreptile

Wreptile

HTReptile
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What brand do you all suggest then?

The Miracle Grow Perlite is the only brand I can find at any store around here.
 
spykerherps

spykerherps

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I found a Giant bag of pure perlite at my local Feed store like 5.0 cubic feet for 15.00 almost a lifetime supply. NOT.
 
B

Baoh

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Golden Gate Geckos said:
Not speaking for Eric, but I can offer my own well-founded reason why the risk is too high... I am just too chicken, so I wouldn't risk it! Leopard gecko eggs are permeable. This means they can absorb chemicals as well as water through their soft shells. This fertilizer compound is designed for plants to absorb through their root systems, not living tissue.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have seen how spilled fertilizer can actually burn areas of my lawn. I surely wouldn't want that for a growing embryo.
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That's fine as you are mentioning an emotional justification for why you would not use it, rather than telling me why I should not use it.

Root systems are living tissue, by the way, and the gecko eggs are not simply permeable, but semi-permeable.

Observing spilled fertilizer on a lawn is a straightforward matter of concentration. Too much concentration is bad. Less than too much is not. If you ate three pounds of calcium carbonate, your intestines would be in a world of hurt. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want calcium for a growing embryo.

As I said before, I am not promoting its use. In fact, if you are worried, I'd suggest not using it. However, risk is something to be calculated. If someone wants to call it risky, then they can say by how much, and not just some arbitrary assignment.

Being who I am and doing what I do, I decided to find out some details.

It has been found that:

<= 10mg/L ammonium nitrate is okay for most freshwater species
<= 20mg/L ammonium nitrate is okay for most marine species
<= 2mg/L ammonium nitrate is tolerated by even the most sensitive freshwater species

Mind you, land animals will be less sensitive, but I wanted a starting point.

So, the density of expanded perlite is anywhere from 0.03g/cm^3 to 0.15g/cm^3. The density of water is basically 1g/cm^3.

Albey's Method utilizes 1 perlite : 0.8 H2O by mass.

I'll use the numbers from his example.

58.6g perlite
46.88g H2O

Now, realize that your total fertilizer is 0.11% and the amount of ammonium nitrate (the real potential issue out of the list) is 0.04%.

58.6 x 0.0004 = 0.02344g
23.44mg / 46.88mL = 0.5mg/mL

So, that is 500mg/L, assuming 100% dissolution, which is quite high in comparison to the tolerance limits I placed above for freshwater species.

So I decided to see if anyone looked at this with squamata.

Somebody has.

Bull Environ Contam Toxicol. 2004 Jul;73(1):125-31.
Toxic effects of ammonium nitrate fertilizer on flexible-shelled lizard eggs.Marco A, Hidalgo-Vila J, Díaz-Paniagua C.
Doñana Biological Station, Spanish Council of Scientific Research, Sevilla, Apartado 1056, Spain.



It turned out that, at their employed concentrations of 100mg/L, there was a significant increase in both mortality and reduction of hatchling size. 27% of the hatchlings exposed to ammonium nitrate died.

Ultimately, it seems especially risky to me (now with an actually defined/calculated risk, rather than hear-say) to expose the eggs of our geckos to this much material. The easiest solution is to just get perlite that does not have the additives, although you could also do a soak, flush, and dry to leach the additives out yourself if you have nothing else available. You can get away with it as it is, but the risk is a potential loss of up to 27% of hatchlings, depending on lizard species, and some percentage of runts in the remainder (unquantified).

This is what I expect to see. Answers based on evidence. It's not that difficult if we all just take the time to look for the necessary information.

Ironically, the orginal label for the plant food actually is not bad, but the additives for the perlite differ from that (as I have shown, in a bad way). If the company added the actual plant food to the perlite, this would be a non-issue entirely.
 
eric

eric

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Wow! That's great! I guess I should of had a little bit of ...How did you put it ..oh ya emotional justification for why I would not use it.
Fertilizer! You can show us what ever you want with calculation still seems a bit risky! You go a head and use it, keep documentation on your hatch rates and deformities and get back with me in three years then and only then if the adults and offspring from you don't exhibit any problems than I might believe you but until then too risky and I said that with emotion just in cause you didn't pick up on that!
 
B

Baoh

New Member
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917
Location
Saint Louis, MO
eric said:
Wow! That's great! I guess I should of had a little bit of ...How did you put it ..oh ya emotional justification for why I would not use it.
Fertilizer! You can show us what ever you want with calculation still seems a bit risky! You go a head and use it, keep documentation on your hatch rates and deformities and get back with me in three years then and only then if the adults and offspring from you don't exhibit any problems than I might believe you but until then too risky and I said that with emotion just in cause you didn't pick up on that!
Click to expand...

Judging by the post I am responding to, you chose not to read mine.
 
Golden Gate Geckos

Golden Gate Geckos

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You know, this thread is not about who's right or who responds and who doesn't. It is about someone who is concerned about incubating gecko eggs on perlite that contains plant fertilizer. All I can say is, that is you are concerned about it... don't use it.

Any of us can Google the effects of plant fertilizer on animals. We are ALL aware that fertilizer run-off from crops is wreaking havok on animal life. We also know that large concentrations of ammonium nitrate can blow a building off the map. I have not yet seen any statistical, scientific data on what concentration(s) of fertilizer compounds are fatal in gecko eggs. Until I do, I simply will not use any substrate that contains fertilizer.

BTW, I can only see the abstract of this scientific data. It will cost me $44 for the entire paper, and it's just not worth $44 to argue about. So, if you have this full paper, I would love so see it!
Bull Environ Contam Toxicol. 2004 Jul;73(1):125-31.
Toxic effects of ammonium nitrate fertilizer on flexible-shelled lizard eggs.Marco A, Hidalgo-Vila J, Díaz-Paniagua C.
Doñana Biological Station, Spanish Council of Scientific Research, Sevilla, Apartado 1056, Spain.
Click to expand...
 
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B

Baoh

New Member
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917
Location
Saint Louis, MO
Golden Gate Geckos said:
You know, this thread is not about who's right or who responds and who doesn't. It is about someone who is concerned about incubating gecko eggs on perlite that contains plant fertilizer. All I can say is, that is you are concerned about it... don't use it.

Any of us can Google the effects of plant fertilizer on animals. We are ALL aware that fertilizer run-off from crops is wreaking havok on animal life. We also know that large concentrations of ammonium nitrate can blow a building off the map. I have not yet seen any statistical, scientific data on what concentration(s) of fertilizer compounds are fatal in gecko eggs. Until I do, I simply will not use any substrate that contains fertilizer.

BTW, I can only see the abstract of this scientific data. It will cost me $44 for the entire paper, and it's just not worth $44 to argue about. So, if you have this full paper, I would love so see it!
Click to expand...

And most google very poorly. Run-off has variations in concentration. Studies of various species, including reptiles, shows that concentrations are what make the difference and that this can be affected by a number of factors, proximal plants roots included, which I found kind of cool. The ability to ignite large amounts of ammonium nitrate are irrelevant to this discussion. I can throw a bunch of pure sodium, potassium, or magnesium in water to great effect, to, but that has nothing to do with our internal regulation, and requirement for, these elements.

I have provided a paper on lizards that have a similar shell type and, in case I have to keep repeating myself, I was not promoting the use fertilizer-enriched perlite. I made a logical, fact-based case against it.

The health and lives of my animals are worth $44 for the analysis and discussion. Luckily, I don't have to pay for these, as I have full access. Either tomorrow or Monday, I will send you a copy you can read through if you like.
 
eric

eric

OREGON GECKO
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Baoh said:
I did. You obviously did not read it because 1) it contains the information and 2) it supports the idea of NOT using the fortified perlite.
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Congratulations you proved what most of us already knew,With out the chemistry lesson. Let it go!
 
cwazy

cwazy

Cwazy Gecko Man!
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dont forget to count to 10!

lol

either way... reason or not... i dont think anyone knows the LONG TERM effects... so why risk it...

as stated in this post previously... its usally a good idea to stick with your gut feelings... *shrug*
 
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